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Old 01-31-2017, 07:25 AM   #41
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Has anybody every actually rolled for shooting paper targets on a known distance course in an actual game?
In my games, several times. Players tend to get this idea of showing off their PCs' skills in a situation where they don't have to risk life and limb to do it. Last time, I just gave everyone a +10 TDM, IIRC. One of the PCs started coming up with higher-stress exercises (i.e. with deliberately distracting environments) to see an NPC perform with less of a noncombat benefit.

It also happened between two PCs in an Exalted campaign I played in (not GURPS, though).
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Old 01-31-2017, 07:31 AM   #42
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

Wouldn't a contest of skills make more sense for a competition like that?
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Old 01-31-2017, 07:57 AM   #43
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Wouldn't a contest of skills make more sense for a competition like that?
IIRC this was how it was handled in Exalted. But of the cases in GURPS campaigns, players tend to want their characters to show off at specific ranges, target sizes, times given per N shots etc.
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Old 01-31-2017, 09:54 AM   #44
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Bizarre, because in other old threads where I suggested as such, nearly everyone vehemently disagreed.
I believe you have, in the past, suggested Reluctant Killer was nearly universal and necessary to create a psychologically normal human. The counter claim made those times was that Reluctant Killer was a very extreme version of normal psychology effects, not that the effects were completely absent.
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Old 01-31-2017, 10:00 AM   #45
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

In thinking about combat situations, GURPS rules and such, I got to thinking about the following. Maybe someone can point out solutions or maybe refine ideas presented below:

Will saving rolls: Too many, and the game bogs down. Too few, and the player characters become super soldiers. Why not make Will saving rolls require a "Quality of success" component? For every point your character missed his will saving roll, the character is required to avoid doing anything that requires a Will saving roll to engage in for that number of seconds? For any action that requires a Will saving roll, the quality of Success grants a number of seconds FREE of having to make a Will saving roll? Combat Reflexes grants a +6 bonus right? Why not make it instead, that it grants a bonus equal to the Soldier Skill/3? This way, Elite Soldiers fare better at responding to things as compared/contrasted against green troops? A Crit success with a Will saving roll might grant double bonus time, or enable a character to purchase certain advantages for their character such as a subset of unfazeable - only combat related?

Perception Rolls: This is a movie influenced concept, since I've never experienced COMBAT, but know how uneasy one gets during hunting season and certain signs of shots being fired without the realization of being in the potential danger zone of unspent rounds flying nearby that didn't hit their intended targets!

How does one know when a bullet is flying close enough to have likely been aimed at yourself, and how does one know that there are bullets flying nearby (such as a suppressive fire attempt) versus hearing shots being fired at some other relatively nearby target?

What is the difference between the feeling of self-preservation one has before entering a suppressive fire zone, and that of the battlefield experiencing a lull because everyone has their heads down or no one sees a target - OR one is the target of an aimed shot just hoping you will poke your head around so you can be shot?

The uncertainty factor that one WILL be hit, and conquering that feeling so that you can do anything effective at all, is what supposedly separates the men from the boys, the effective soldier versus the cowering soldier.

The other question that comes into play...

At what point does PTSD come into play? Long term exposure to combat related stress or fear of being killed under intense environments? Can a soldier who has combat reflexes, suddenly become inflicted with PTSD? GURPS CLASSIC had the definition that the difference between one category of soldiers and another, was that the one set had combat reflexes - which they gained after 7 battles. Why not make it a simple rule, that player characters who survive at least 7 distinct high intensity firefights, gain 3 points the first firefight they survive, plus 2 per subsequent firefight they survive - automatically given towards Combat Reflexes. Any time a character has a critical failure on a will saving roll while under fire during this time period, gains the ANTI-Combat reflexes disadvantage (what ever that might be construed as)? Characters who gain sufficient R&R time may in turn buy DOWN the points accumulating towards PTSD. Once they build up sufficient points towards the Anti-Combat Reflexes that they acquire it, they can only lose that disadvantage with psychiatric help.

Just musing here.
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Old 01-31-2017, 10:43 AM   #46
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
IIRC this was how it was handled in Exalted. But of the cases in GURPS campaigns, players tend to want their characters to show off at specific ranges, target sizes, times given per N shots etc.
I think the way to game that would be to let the course designer just pick a modifier between -10 and +10 and not worry about the specific details, as there are a lot of possible variables.
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Old 01-31-2017, 10:50 AM   #47
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
Why not make Will saving rolls require a "Quality of success" component?
They already do; MoF applies to any roll to do anything when leaving cover into suppression, and MoF adds to the Fright Check table roll.
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Perception Rolls: This is a movie influenced concept, since I've never experienced COMBAT, but know how uneasy one gets during hunting season and certain signs of shots being fired without the realization of being in the potential danger zone of unspent rounds flying nearby that didn't hit their intended targets!
This is the intent of the Situational Awareness rules
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At what point does PTSD come into play?
In GURPS Tactical Shooting from failed Fright Checks, but I also recommend using the Stress and Derangement rules from Horror as well, if you are interested in simulating traumatic stress.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 02-01-2017 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 01-31-2017, 12:52 PM   #48
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
I believe you have, in the past, suggested Reluctant Killer was nearly universal and necessary to create a psychologically normal human. The counter claim made those times was that Reluctant Killer was a very extreme version of normal psychology effects, not that the effects were completely absent.
Difficulty in killing people versus difficulty in killing people. I'm not seeing any real difference other than gaming terms. Either a -4 vs. humans or a +4 when not isn't changing the difference, only the zero point.

It's not the first gaming issue I've seen everyone here radically change position on over the years.
Though I admit to my own changing of opinions from such threads. I now understand that most humans are far more damaged by fear of what could be done to them than what they do against others.
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Old 01-31-2017, 01:02 PM   #49
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Difficulty in killing people versus difficulty in killing people. I'm not seeing any real difference other than gaming terms. Either a -4 vs. humans or a +4 when not isn't changing the difference, only the zero point.
Lack of psychological pressures is at most +3. The key thing is that the zero point is on the vast majority of rolls for weapon skills: attacks in actual combat.

Quote:
It's not the first gaming issue I've seen everyone here radically change position on over the years.
I think you will find that I have been consistent on this.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 01-31-2017 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 01-31-2017, 01:09 PM   #50
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Default Re: [TS] Lack of psychological pressure and shots at people

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Has anybody every actually rolled for shooting paper targets on a known distance course in an actual game?
I expect the answer is yes. But it would make no difference to me if the answer was no.
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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
Difficulty in killing people versus difficulty in killing people. I'm not seeing any real difference other than gaming terms. Either a -4 vs. humans or a +4 when not isn't changing the difference, only the zero point.
The non-combat rules and Reluctant Killer coexist. They're not substitutes.

Also, the non-combat rules don't give +4 for not shooting humans. They give up to +3, but each point of that is also dependent on a different fairly stringent condition.
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