Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-24-2017, 02:35 PM   #1
vicky_molokh
GURPS FAQ Keeper
 
vicky_molokh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
Default Collectivistic Borrowing-Based Economies and 80% Wealth: game-mechanical effects

Greetings, all!

A certain society tends to keep individual property to a minimum, instead preferring to pool most of their resources, and for individuals to borrow the collective stuff on a per-need basis. Essentially, instead of buying a personal home and a personal car and so on with their 80% Starting Wealth, the things bought (or 'bought') with it go into a collective 'reserve' on the assumption that not everyone needs everything all the time, that carpooling is usually more efficient etc. Of course, sometimes that means needing to get in line to get a thing if there's a period of unforeseen demand for it within the social unit.

For the record, social units in the society in question tend to be between 200 and 20,000 people (but that's a high number; usually the actual maximum is around one or two thousand adults), but the people in these groups tend to have bigger monkeyspheres than we do thanks to a combination of psychological differences (Chummy and Sense of Duty being common) and some reputation-tracking goodness (split between the technological and the neurological). Also, this isn't quite the same thing as a gift economy.

There are of course various complication that I'm glossing over in this thread, such as evaluation and performance of contributions into the pool. What I'm interested the most right now is how do I best game-mechanise:
  • The question and answer about how many (if any) of a given item are available in a pool (preferably with adjustments based on TL, average Wealth, and the adult population of a given social unit) and
  • The question and answer about how high the demand for the item in question is, thus getting a way to estimate the waiting time for getting to use something, depending on category, price relative to default starting wealth etc.
  • How long would an item be allowed to be borrowed without repercussions?

Thanks in advance!
__________________
Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper
vicky_molokh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2017, 03:39 PM   #2
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Collectivistic Borrowing-Based Economies and 80% Wealth: game-mechanical differen

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
There are of course various complication that I'm glossing over in this thread, such as evaluation and performance of contributions into the pool. What I'm interested the most right now is how do I best game-mechanise:
  • The question and answer about how many (if any) of a given item are available in a pool (preferably with adjustments based on TL, average Wealth, and the adult population of a given social unit) and
  • The question and answer about how high the demand for the item in question is, thus getting a way to estimate the waiting time for getting to use something, depending on category, price relative to default starting wealth etc.
  • How long would an item be allowed to be borrowed without repercussions?
You could look into the processes used by libraries, including tool lending libraries, as they already work a lot like what you're talking about.

It turns out that your first two questions are linked. Given the budget to do so, a library wants to make it so waiting periods are somewhat similar on all reasonably items, and thus gets more copies of high demand items, fewer copies of low demand items. It will also tend to get more copies of cheaper items, simply because it can, though not so many that some wind up sitting on the shelf gathering dust, because inventory space is limited.

I would probably just use a wealth roll (I'm not sure how abstract wealth from Pyramid 3/44 works, but it may be reasonable); success means available, failure might mean any of 'none available', 'None currently available, but we have one checked out that's due in X days', 'None locally available, but it can be shipped from our sister library in X days', and so on.

As for loan period, typically loan period would be set to be sufficient for 'normal' use of an item, and if no-one else wants it you can renew your loan. I'd suggest rerolling the wealth roll every period, and on a failure someone's put a hold on the item and you have to return it to the library.
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2017, 04:56 PM   #3
(E)
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: New Zealand.
Default Re: Collectivistic Borrowing-Based Economies and 80% Wealth: game-mechanical differen

I whipped up some very quick rules in the denizens of the Dark Horde game on the gurps discord to cover a similar situation(they are in the document pinned to the channel). A collective pile of military loot and supplies that the PCs could draw upon. It used a combination of status and social regard/skill to determine what could be aquired. Though admittedly the social structure in the game was based on rank modified by how scary the character was.
__________________
Waiting for inspiration to strike......
And spending too much time thinking about farming for RPGs
Contributor to Citadel at Nordvörn
(E) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2017, 05:43 PM   #4
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: Collectivistic Borrowing-Based Economies and 80% Wealth: game-mechanical differen

There's nothing about that setup that's particularly "collectivist." It's entirely possible to have an individualist economy with goods that are rented when needed. Here in California, for example, we have taxis, Uber and Lyft, little miniature cars that can be rented, traditional car rental and leasing agencies . . . all of those are ways of having a car available when you want it, and enough people go that way to sustain all those businesses.

So why doesn't everyone do that? Why do a lot of people choose to tie up capital in a car that they don't use all the time, and often take on the added expense of a storage building to hold it?

* You can count on having the car when you need it, rather than risking having a big surge in demand that keeps you waiting when it's urgent to go somewhere.

* You own the car, so you can choose one that suits your tastes, and customize it.

* You don't have to put it back into clean condition right away when you're done using it.

* For that matter, you're free to turn it into a source of income when you aren't using it for personal needs, by signing up with Uber or Lyft, putting yourself on the donor side of what you call "collectivism."

* If you own the car, you maintain it to whatever standards you think are appropriate. If people use cars, they have no big incentive to leave them in good condition when they're done using them; the average quality of cars may decline.

If you want to have what you call "collectivistic" borrowing, I think those are some of the motives that you want to weaken, in whatever way you can think of.
__________________
Bill Stoddard

I don't think we're in Oz any more.
whswhs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2017, 05:48 PM   #5
Anthony
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
Default Re: Collectivistic Borrowing-Based Economies and 80% Wealth: game-mechanical differen

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
There's nothing about that setup that's particularly "collectivist."
The borrowing is need-based rather than payment-based, and 'most' assets are in the pool rather than individually owned. That seems collectivist to me (there are realistic difficulties with such a scheme, of course, but that seems out of scope for the original question).
__________________
My GURPS site and Blog.
Anthony is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2017, 05:50 PM   #6
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: Collectivistic Borrowing-Based Economies and 80% Wealth: game-mechanical differen

There's nothing about that setup that's particularly "collectivist." It's entirely possible to have an individualist economy with goods that are rented when needed. Here in California, for example, we have taxis, Uber and Lyft, little miniature cars that can be rented, traditional car rental and leasing agencies . . . all of those are ways of having a car available when you want it, and enough people go that way to sustain all those businesses.

So why doesn't everyone do that? Why do a lot of people choose to tie up capital in a car that they don't use all the time, and often take on the added expense of a storage building to hold it?

* You can count on having the car when you need it, rather than risking having a big surge in demand that keeps you waiting when it's urgent to go somewhere.

* You own the car, so you can choose one that suits your tastes, and customize it.

* You don't have to put it back into clean condition right away when you're done using it.

* For that matter, you're free to turn it into a source of income when you aren't using it for personal needs, by signing up with Uber or Lyft, putting yourself on the donor side of what you call "collectivism."

* If you own the car, you maintain it to whatever standards you think are appropriate. If people use cars, they have no big incentive to leave them in good condition when they're done using them; the average quality of cars may decline.

If you want to have what you call "collectivistic" borrowing, I think those are some of the motives that you want to weaken, in whatever way you can think of.
__________________
Bill Stoddard

I don't think we're in Oz any more.
whswhs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2017, 08:56 PM   #7
Curmudgeon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Default Re: Collectivistic Borrowing-Based Economies and 80% Wealth: game-mechanical differen

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Greetings, all!

A certain society tends to keep individual property to a minimum, instead preferring to pool most of their resources, and for individuals to borrow the collective stuff on a per-need basis. Essentially, instead of buying a personal home and a personal car and so on with their 80% Starting Wealth, the things bought (or 'bought') with it go into a collective 'reserve' on the assumption that not everyone needs everything all the time, that carpooling is usually more efficient etc. Of course, sometimes that means needing to get in line to get a thing if there's a period of unforeseen demand for it within the social unit.

For the record, social units in the society in question tend to be between 200 and 20,000 people (but that's a high number; usually the actual maximum is around one or two thousand adults), but the people in these groups tend to have bigger monkeyspheres than we do thanks to a combination of psychological differences (Chummy and Sense of Duty being common) and some reputation-tracking goodness (split between the technological and the neurological). Also, this isn't quite the same thing as a gift economy.

There are of course various complication that I'm glossing over in this thread, such as evaluation and performance of contributions into the pool. What I'm interested the most right now is how do I best game-mechanise:
  • The question and answer about how many (if any) of a given item are available in a pool (preferably with adjustments based on TL, average Wealth, and the adult population of a given social unit) and
  • The question and answer about how high the demand for the item in question is, thus getting a way to estimate the waiting time for getting to use something, depending on category, price relative to default starting wealth etc.
  • How long would an item be allowed to be borrowed without repercussions?

Thanks in advance!
It requires a bit of thought about both the limits of technology and just how much change in both kind and degree the society is willing to go to in the name of greater efficiency.

For example, one might put personal basics from the Equipment List in the individual property category and group basics in the collective pool, but neither necessarily follows. We have personal toothbrushes and tumblers for hygiene reasons, but you certainly don’t need them all the time, so if hygiene isn’t as big a concern as it is with us, maybe they’re collective pool equipment. Likewise, if the basic cooking gear will make a meal for four and everyone cooks to have meals at 6 a.m., noon and 6 p.m., there is no efficiency; every group of four needs its own cook set. Or do they have cauldrons that are constantly on the go (with either a stew or soup)? “Sure, I had a bowl of stew and I added two carrots and the peas from six pods to it after. I’m not stingy.” Or they might reduce socialization over meals and instead stagger mealtimes to get maximum use out of the cook sets.

As an example of a technological limit, you can only make a clay oven so big before it becomes inefficient to heat. Bread is a commonly baked foodstuff and it doesn’t keep particularly well, so, do you bake three days’ worth for one group as a batch and then bake other things or do you bake batch after batch of bread in the one oven and have a different oven for other things?

Hot water is another possibility. It’s more efficient to heat the water once and be done with it, but like the oven, there’s likely a balancing point for it, but do they have communal bathhouses rather than individual tubs and showers?

Public toilets might be another possibility.

However, everyone might need to have a first aid kit with them, and even if it’s only useful sometimes, everyone needs rain gear when it pours.

As for how long you can borrow an item without reprecussion, I’m a bit surprised by the question. The only borrowing-economy I’m even vaguely familiar with would be the now-extinct Beothuk culture of Newfoundland. What little I took of them in history suggests a different view of what “borrowing” meant. Your question implies more of a “lending”-economy where you have the use of the tool for a more-or-less fixed time (or maybe by the piece. “Just until I finish making this chair.”) Beothuk culture was closer to “it was just sitting there and no one was using it, so …” Unless it was clear that you’d only put a tool done to wipe your brow before carrying on, it seems more like it was a case of when you pull the boat up and go home to supper, you’re done borrowing the boat and nets and anybody who can get a crew up (if a crew is necessary) is now able to borrow the boat and nets, even if you planned to go out again after supper.
Curmudgeon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 05:28 AM   #8
(E)
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: New Zealand.
Default Re: Collectivistic Borrowing-Based Economies and 80% Wealth: game-mechanical effects

How many of a given item is in stock
Figure out peak demand, 2 person tents may have a peak demand of 30% for example. At most 30% of the population will ask for tents at one time. As tents can be shared add in a modifier for how often this happens on average, 50%. How wasteful is the system with 100% being perfect and say 125% being typical. Now take the total population 1000, multiply by 30% and reduce the number based on how well they are shared which results in 200 tents. Multiply this by the efficiency and there are 250 tents scattered around the various depots and in peoples possession. This represents "average" wealth, a poor group has less, a rich group more. I would think the effects of wealth would be less pronounced than the numbers given for character wealth level.

For more luxurious items determine at what wealth level they become common, comfortable (25%) , wealthy (10%), very wealthy (5%), filthy rich (1%) and use the percentage as another multiplier.

Abstract game mechanics. "Need" is by default 10 (+/- 1 per level of wealth) with importance (+/- 3) and urgency (+/- 3) factored in as well as social standing (non appearance reaction modifiers) roll against this number for an "average item" modify for wealth or possibly use wealth to determine how long an item may be borrowed. Cheap hatchbacks can be used for longer than the high end Bently that is in high demand for weddings and functions.

A couple of ideas anyway
__________________
Waiting for inspiration to strike......
And spending too much time thinking about farming for RPGs
Contributor to Citadel at Nordvörn

Last edited by (E); 05-25-2017 at 05:32 AM.
(E) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 06:31 AM   #9
Donny Brook
 
Donny Brook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Snoopy's basement
Default Re: Collectivistic Borrowing-Based Economies and 80% Wealth: game-mechanical effects

I hate to sound negative, but this is a huge question even if you have all your data/assumptions in hand. Multi-month hundred thousand page hearings seek these answers just for a single commodity, let alone entire economies.
In a practical basis I think your only recourse is to make it up.
Donny Brook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2017, 08:44 AM   #10
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Collectivistic Borrowing-Based Economies and 80% Wealth: game-mechanical effects

As Kromm has pointed out, Wealth is really primarily a social trait (even cross-linked with Status in most societies), and not a detached measure of just how much physical stuff you happen have at the moment of character creation. So, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to use the rules more or less as they are. The 80% just reflects the amount of social currency you have which justifies your perceived and accepted "need" for the toys you demand, so that observers don't get offended and take whatever sorts of retribution society inflicts on the perceived-as-greedy.

(It's no worse of an approximation than the Wealth rules are themselves.)
Anaraxes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
collectivism, economics, wealth

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.