Reality-testing / Playtesting the Guns Default . . .

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Performing a simple task like shooting at a firing range at DX after having learnt the basics of how a gun works* is not the same as being able to use it in a real firefight at full DX or IQ.

If it were that simple, people doing classical sports shooting would never bother learning Gun Sport (or is it Art?), and would improve this 'simple task' instead.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

If it were that simple, people doing classical sports shooting would never bother learning Gun Sport (or is it Art?), and would improve this 'simple task' instead.

I have real trouble with the concept of Guns Sport skill for target shooting. It might make more sense for paintball guns or nerf guns, as these don't function much like real guns.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Performing a simple task like shooting at a firing range at DX after having learnt the basics of how a gun works* is not the same as being able to use it in a real firefight at full DX or IQ.

While I think this statement is 100% correct, it contradicts your statement about only taking a short time to get military personnel to Guns (Rifle)-12.

I think it's probably accurate to say that it takes a short time to get military personnel to Guns Sport (Rifle)-12, which is a combat skill of DX-1, or Guns-9. That's more consistent with observed results.

The requirements to get to Guns-12 in combat situations are much higher, and require intensive and realistic training only given to the real shooters.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

While I think this statement is 100% correct, it contradicts your statement about only taking a short time to get military personnel to Guns (Rifle)-12.

I think it's probably accurate to say that it takes a short time to get military personnel to Guns Sport (Rifle)-12, which is a combat skill of DX-1, or Guns-9. That's more consistent with observed results.

The requirements to get to Guns-12 in combat situations are much higher, and require intensive and realistic training only given to the real shooters.

I personally think that's because most people have Pacifism (Reluctant Killer), which neatly covers how people can easily perform up to Guns (Rifle) 12+ standard on the firing range with minimal training, but most people miss like they have only skill 6-10 under combat conditions.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I personally think that's because most people have Pacifism (Reluctant Killer), which neatly covers how people can easily perform up to Guns (Rifle) 12+ standard on the firing range with minimal training, but most people miss like they have only skill 6-10 under combat conditions.

Are you thinking along the lines that a lot of military training in terms of gun use is time spent teaching soldiers react with their guns and shoot effectively in combat situations. Which is separate from teaching them to shoot straight in abstract terms?

It would fit "Train like you fight, fight like you train"

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Are you thinking along the lines that a lot of military training in terms of gun use is time spent teaching soldiers react with their guns and shoot effectively in combat situations. Which is separate from teaching them to shoot straight in abstract terms?

It would fit "Train like you fight, fight like you train"

Yep. Buying off Combat Paralysis, low Will, Fearfulness, Pacifism and all the other traits that make civilised people bad at combat takes most of the effort. Also, teaching Observation, Soldier and the basics of Tactics skill.

[Edges]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Greetings, all!

So, I got the opportunity to try out just what numbers result from using Guns (Pistol) at Default, and it seems there is a discrepancy. It seems like GURPS provides results that are too harsh.

First, let's try to figure out all the numbers:

Base DX of 9 (I'm clumsier than average) and a Default skill level, so 9-4=5. IIRC Kromm said that Familiarity penalties don't stack with default penalties, so let's keep it at that.

TDMs and other modifiers:
+1 for “no risk to self” (nobody else shooting, just-serviced weapon, etc.),
+1 for “no risk to others” (all allies behind you, no risk of overpenetration or ricochet)
+1 for “no political or military stake in the outcome.”
+1 for a not-quite ideal environment (basement-like indoor, but with mediocre lighting, a sandy 'floor' etc.)
No modifier for a range that isn't precisely known (very approximately 15 metres or yards)
-1 (possibly) from poor lighting (definitely worse than a 120W bulb at 1 yard).
+2 for Acc of a Glock, possibly another +1 for an extra second (but I doubt it).
+1 for AoA.
-5 (approximately) for a Distance of about 15 yards.
-5 for shooting the target's head

Total numbers: base skill 5 plus +4 from various TDMs, +3 for Aimed AoA, and -10 for combined distance and target size, ±1 for maybe lighting and/or maybe an extra second. That gives a total modified roll against 2±1. Which means hitting should be more-or-less impossible.

Alas, I don't have precise percentages of hits, but neither I nor anybody else seemed to find this an impossible task - usually between half and all of the bullets hit. Which would require a modified skill level of perhaps 10-15. That requires somewhere between 6 and, oh, say 12 more levels of positive TDMs, which seems to be in excess of even the +10 that is provided under ideal circumstances.

(There were other firing modes and other distances, but I'm posting the one I found more memorable. I'll try to get more precise numbers later.)

Am I missing something in the rules, or is the system somewhat 'off'?

Thanks in advance!

If you have the time, you might want to look at this old thread. We went over much of the same ground in some detail.

[Eukie]

GURPS does all probabilities with a 3d6 distribution, which gives a cumulative distribution of, roughly, the Gaussian Error Function.

Shooting at a circular target in the real world tends to follow more of a Rayleigh Distribution.

Since these two distributions are not the same, it'll be basically impossible to have values in GURPS that correspond to the entire range of real-world values. You might find some sweet spot where GURPS is a simulation of the real world, but GURPS isn't a good model of shooting to begin with, so your results at the gun range are partially just a result of that.

[vicky_molokh]

Regarding the 'precisely known range' bonus:
If we go by the fact that at a couple of tens of yards the trajectory is flat anyway, I'm not sure what benefit precisely-known range should provide (i.e. someone could advocate a harsh-realism houserule making the answer 'none').
But even by RAW, the Eye For Distance perk provides a 'built-in' rangefinder with an error margin of ±5%, and is considered good enough to allow Precision Aiming but not to enjoy a Rangefinder bonus. So 'approximately 15 yards or metres' is already a precision level with an even worse error margin (at least ±10%).

Regarding Defaults:
If we don't have a consensus that someone picking up a real pistol for the first time in one's life is working at Default, then the results of the reality-test become irrelevant. So I want to ask: what do you consider to be the criterion of having 0 points in a DX/Easy skill (i.e. working at an actual default while having a default)? Back when I posted my impressions with the driving default, I don't recall anyone insisting that I have a point in Driving from playing Death Track on the computer.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Getting military recruits to Guns -12 takes surprisingly little time and effort

GURPS Fourth Edition Tactical Shooting takes the view that while the first point in Guns skill can come quickly in the right training regime (one which focuses on skills useful in a firefight, not range shooting) skill 12+ is not characteristic of soldiers fresh out of infantry training but of experienced soldiers, serious hunters and target shooters, etc. I tend to follow their take on what is realistic about modern firearms and firearms training, because their credentials are excellent and when they cite a source it always says what they say it says.

In the real world a significant number of people who wear a handgun and completed a training course still have a default or at best a Dabbler perk in Guns (Pistol).