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Old 05-26-2019, 01:50 PM   #1
Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2
 
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Default Yet Again I ask This Question ... { Killer Mutant Penguin Magic }

I've been asking this question periodically ever since I joined this forum in 2005. I have NEVER gotten a clear answer. But Hope Blooms Eternal and all that.

In GURPS Technomancer, the Killer Mutant Penguins all have magery and are linked into a collective consciousness. Witnesses to a magic ritual can supply power to a ritual. There are many thousands of Penguins.

Do the members of a collective consciousness not present at a ritual contribute power to a magic ritual conducted by one of them? If so do they count as witnesses or participants or actual casters?

This is a game-breaker, as any individual Penguin enchanter could potentially tap into a reservoir of many thousands of Fatigue for making artifacts or casting spells. But only if the collective consciouness can participate at some level.

No one has ever given a clear answer, with the dialog decaying into either a discussion of magic rituals or the nature of the collective mind. (Or jokes about penguins.)

So is it "yes they participate in X fashion, giving y extra energy" or "no for thus-and-so reason"?

Who will resolve my dilemma?
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Old 05-26-2019, 02:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: Yet Again I ask This Question ...

See Ceremonial Magic in GURPS Magic, p. 12 or Basic p. 238.
Spectator are limited to 100
Participating mages can supply as much FP if they know the spell at 15+,up to 3 FP if they know the spell at 14 or lower.

Whats not really clear is how close they have to be. I vaguely recall somewhere they have to be touching (perhaps Thaumatology) but I houserule they have to be close enough to touch at least one other participant, and are usually grouped up so multiples are close.
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Old 05-26-2019, 02:45 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2 View Post
I've been asking this question periodically ever since I joined this forum in 2005. I have NEVER gotten a clear answer. But Hope Blooms Eternal and all that.

In GURPS Technomancer, the Killer Mutant Penguins all have magery and are linked into a collective consciousness. Witnesses to a magic ritual can supply power to a ritual. There are many thousands of Penguins.

Do the members of a collective consciousness not present at a ritual contribute power to a magic ritual conducted by one of them? If so do they count as witnesses or participants or actual casters?

This is a game-breaker, as any individual Penguin enchanter could potentially tap into a reservoir of many thousands of Fatigue for making artifacts or casting spells. But only if the collective consciouness can participate at some level.

No one has ever given a clear answer, with the dialog decaying into either a discussion of magic rituals or the nature of the collective mind. (Or jokes about penguins.)

So is it "yes they participate in X fashion, giving y extra energy" or "no for thus-and-so reason"?

Who will resolve my dilemma?
You may want to ask the author, David Pulver, who is active on the forum.

My reading, using magic 3e and Compendium I for rules :

-it is not a circle, that would require physical contact.

-Spectator : they share knowledge in real time, and obviously have both the belief and desire to help. And since they are intelligent drone, they are not functionaly a single mind. So, I guess the collective qualify as observers, contributing up to 1 per penguin.

However, remenber that spectators can only contribute up to a maximum of 100 spectator energy points per spell. (Magic 3e p15)

Also, they sit on a very high magic area.
Since a ritual fail on a 16+, and failure is automatically a disaster in very high magic area, I would guess they are not playing around with mass rituals if they can avoid to do so ... But the potential is there, as noted in Technomancer "capable of massed ritual magic"

Last edited by Celjabba; 05-26-2019 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 05-26-2019, 03:07 PM   #4
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Default Re: Yet Again I ask This Question ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2 View Post
Do the members of a collective consciousness not present at a ritual contribute power to a magic ritual conducted by one of them? If so do they count as witnesses or participants or actual casters?
No, they don't. That would require the collective consciousness link to be capable of conveying large amounts of energy. There's also a line in Technomancer that supports this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technomancer, p. 66
Many intelligence experts are nervous about what is being called the “Penguin Collective”: a city atop a very high-mana area, capable of massed ritual magic.
If the penguins were capable of participating in mass ritual magic without being in the same place, this would not be anything to worry about, because the penguins would already rule the world.
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Old 05-26-2019, 03:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: Yet Again I ask This Question ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2 View Post
I've been asking this question periodically ever since I joined this forum in 2005. I have NEVER gotten a clear answer. But Hope Blooms Eternal and all that.

In GURPS Technomancer, the Killer Mutant Penguins all have magery and are linked into a collective consciousness. Witnesses to a magic ritual can supply power to a ritual. There are many thousands of Penguins.

Do the members of a collective consciousness not present at a ritual contribute power to a magic ritual conducted by one of them? If so do they count as witnesses or participants or actual casters?

This is a game-breaker, as any individual Penguin enchanter could potentially tap into a reservoir of many thousands of Fatigue for making artifacts or casting spells. But only if the collective consciouness can participate at some level.

No one has ever given a clear answer, with the dialog decaying into either a discussion of magic rituals or the nature of the collective mind. (Or jokes about penguins.)

So is it "yes they participate in X fashion, giving y extra energy" or "no for thus-and-so reason"?

Who will resolve my dilemma?
I can't give you a definitive answer, just my considered opinion. You really ought to try asking Kromm, or David.

Ceremonial Magic in 3E required Circle participants to be *physically* connected (not necessarily touching each other, but frex, touching a common center). Spectators are assumed to be nearby, but in this case, Mindlink might allow more distant participants. The limit of 100 points from spectators would keep this from being terribly abusive. We might surmise that the penguins are limited in the power available for ceremonies, else they would likely be terrorizing the human civilizations with 10,000+ energy point ceremonial spells.
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Old 05-26-2019, 03:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: Yet Again I ask This Question ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
If the penguins were capable of participating in mass ritual magic without being in the same place, this would not be anything to worry about, because the penguins would already rule the world.
They have a range limitations of 1000 miles, so a lone penguin in the US or elsewhere cannot drawn upon the collective.
And they don't seem to want to leave Antartica anyway.

Moreover, while a Penguin may get 100fp from the collective, if he is in range of the collective and have the requisite skill, a single technowizard can draw power from a NEMA power line for about 50 fp ... so both side have huge potential for mass magic spells : 2 mages holding hand near a power line match a collective-boosted penguin.

Last edited by Celjabba; 05-26-2019 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 05-26-2019, 03:30 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2 View Post
I've been asking this question periodically ever since I joined this forum in 2005. I have NEVER gotten a clear answer. But Hope Blooms Eternal and all that.

In GURPS Technomancer, the Killer Mutant Penguins all have magery and are linked into a collective consciousness. Witnesses to a magic ritual can supply power to a ritual. There are many thousands of Penguins.

Do the members of a collective consciousness not present at a ritual contribute power to a magic ritual conducted by one of them? If so do they count as witnesses or participants or actual casters?

This is a game-breaker, as any individual Penguin enchanter could potentially tap into a reservoir of many thousands of Fatigue for making artifacts or casting spells. But only if the collective consciouness can participate at some level.

No one has ever given a clear answer, with the dialog decaying into either a discussion of magic rituals or the nature of the collective mind. (Or jokes about penguins.)

So is it "yes they participate in X fashion, giving y extra energy" or "no for thus-and-so reason"?

Who will resolve my dilemma?
The short answer is "No."

The relevant references are all GURPS 3rd ed. and as follows:
Killer penguin racial template [p. T66 (GURPS Technomancer)]
Mindshare [pp. CI60-CI61 (GURPS Compendium I)]
Ceremonial and Group Magic [pp. M13-M14 (GURPS Magic)]

According to the racial template, all the killer penguins have Magery 1 and Mindshare (global consciousness; 1,000 mile radius; c. 12,000 drones; intelligent drones). In accordance with the rules for Mindshare, this establishes that each drone is, individually within the race and independently of any other member of the race, a mage.

At this point the question becomes how each member of the race can contribute to a ceremonial casting. By the rules for ceremonial and group casting, the fact that each member of the race is aware of any ceremonial casting at the moment it happens is interesting, but also completely irrelevant to the casting.

By the rules for ceremonial casting, there are two, and only two, ways in which fatigue may be contributed to the casting.

As part of a Circle, which can be any number of magicians who must be physically joined in some way, such as holding hands. Thus, only those killer penguins physically present can be part of the circle. As there are no non-mage killer penguins, the members of the circle are limited to contributing 3 FP if they know the spell at 14- or any amount if they know the spell at 15+.

Only unskilled (i.e., non-mage who know the spell at 14-, including those who don't know the spell at all) observers can contribute as Spectators. As no killer penguin is a non-mage, no killer penguin can contribute as a spectator.

Thus the only killer penguins within the global consciousness who can contribute to the ceremonial casting are those who are physically present as part of the Circle. No other killer penguin can contribute FP to the casting. [I suppose they could contribute advice, but does any mage want someone nattering in his ear when he's trying to cast a ceremonial ritual?]
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Old 05-26-2019, 11:54 PM   #8
Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2
 
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Default Re: Yet Again I ask This Question ...

Answers at last. Plus references, too. Much thanks, comrades.
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Old 05-27-2019, 09:28 AM   #9
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Default Re: Yet Again I ask This Question ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
The short answer is "No."
I partially agree with this. I agree it is not possible, but the argument should be different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
(...) By the rules for ceremonial casting, (...) Only unskilled (i.e., non-mage who know the spell at 14-, including those who don't know the spell at all) observers can contribute as Spectators. As no killer penguin is a non-mage, no killer penguin can contribute as a spectator (...)
Almost, I quote this:

Quote:
"Spectators are allowed (and those who know the spell may opt to be spectators rather than members of the circle). Spectators are treated exactly as members of the circle, except that their skill levels are not included when determining which caster has the lowest skill and they may each contribute only a single point of energy to the casting. The only limit to the number of spectators participating is that the amount of energy from spectators cannot exceed the skill of the least-skilled caster in the circle times the number of casters in the circle."
The fact you should take into account, is this:

Quote:
Each person present (within sight or 10 yards of any member of the circle or participating spectator) during the casting who is neither a member of the circle nor a participating spectator imposes a -1 penalty to the final skill roll. Each person present who is actively opposed to the spell being cast imposes the same penalty and additionally adds 5 points to the casting cost of the spell.
This means that your legions of penguins won't provide any bonuses, but a penalty, if they decide to participate via mind-share. I am assuming that mind-share bypasses the 10 yd. limit because their body (which has FP/mana) is not there to contribute, but their mind is right there messing with the magic.

Edit: Are these Disgaea's Prinny?
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Last edited by Hide; 05-27-2019 at 09:41 AM. Reason: Sidenotes
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Old 05-27-2019, 11:18 AM   #10
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Default Re: Yet Again I ask This Question ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hide View Post
Edit: Are these Disgaea's Prinny?
No I specified in the Mutant Killer Penguins from GURPS Technomancer. I didn't know Disgaea even had penguins.

And thanks for the analysis.
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