Alternate Form: order of modifiers

whswhs · 01-31-2021, 04:30 PM

I'm starting to work on character design with players for a new campaign. One of them is looking to create a character with the Weird power modifier (the version that's effectively halfway to Cosmic). But what he wants is a character whose powers in general are only active when he's in an Alternate Form. So, for example, let's suppose that he has an attack that ignores defenses other than Weird or Cosmic defenses.

(1) Does he buy the attack with Weird (+150%) and then pay 90% of that to have it available only in the AF?

(2) Does he instead buy the attack at its base value, pay 90% of that to have it available only in the AF, and then buy that part of AF with Weird (+50%)?

(3) Does he perhaps buy the attack with Weird (+100%), pay 90% of that to have it available only in the AF, and then buy that part of the AF with Weird (+50%)?

(4) Does he buy the base 15 points for AF with Weird (+50%)? What benefit does that grant? Does it perhaps mean that only a Weird or Cosmic effect can force him out of the AF?

(5) Is there some other configuration I haven't thought of?

Say, it isn't that bad! · 01-31-2021, 04:55 PM

Well, according to what I read in the GURPS: Furries thread, the answer is:

(6) Buy the attack with Weird (+150%) and add an Accessibility limitation of something like "Only in Alternate Form".

Ulzgoroth · 01-31-2021, 05:21 PM

So, first a point of rules: According to Powers, p74, modifiers (except Affects Others) do not modify the '90% of template cost' portion of Alternate Form's cost, only the flat 15 points per form.

Modifiers apply to traits within the alternate form template the same way they would anywhere else. So whatever Enhancement the attack needs to function should be on the attack prior to any Alternate Form wrangling.

Modifiers on Alternate Form relate to the shapeshifting process, not the performance of the shifted form in general. And, as noted, they only apply to the fixed overhead part of the cost anyhow. So put a power modifier on there if the ability to adopt the form partakes of that modifier. In some settings, it would make sense to have Alternate Form with one power modifier, giving you a form that has abilities of a different power modifier (or even multiple different power modifiers).

whswhs · 01-31-2021, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Modifiers on Alternate Form relate to the shapeshifting process, not the performance of the shifted form in general. And, as noted, they only apply to the fixed overhead part of the cost anyhow.

I'm glad to be pointed at a place where the issue has already been addressed. Thanks!

DangerousThing · 01-31-2021, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whswhs

(1) Does he buy the attack with Weird (+150%)

I thought that Weird was -10%?

whswhs · 02-01-2021, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DangerousThing

I thought that Weird was -10%?

That's the standard form I provided in GURPS Powers: The Weird. But this is an alternate form that I've adopted for this campaign; it's treated as halfway to Cosmic.

Anaraxes · 02-01-2021, 06:18 AM

There's no rule that says Power Modifiers must be -10%. That was just a convention for editorial convenience and wordcount in the Powers book. Recall they had all those example abilities, many of which could fit into different powers. If the PMs had different values, the point costs would change for each power. If you make all the PMs the same, at least you can include a catalog of samples that can be ported easily among the powers.

GMs wind up with the same choice. It's quite likely that the powers in any particular setting could have a PM that's not -10%. But if so, the players are going to have to do the math again. I never found this a burden, because when I'm building abilities, I'm generally building them from the ground up anyway. But if you have players that don't want to get into that, a consistent PM value will make their life easier. (Plus you won't have to explain why John's ability cost 10 points while Jane's same ability in her power cost 15...)

01-31-2021, 04:30 PM	#1
whswhs Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS	Alternate Form: order of modifiers I'm starting to work on character design with players for a new campaign. One of them is looking to create a character with the Weird power modifier (the version that's effectively halfway to Cosmic). But what he wants is a character whose powers in general are only active when he's in an Alternate Form. So, for example, let's suppose that he has an attack that ignores defenses other than Weird or Cosmic defenses. (1) Does he buy the attack with Weird (+150%) and then pay 90% of that to have it available only in the AF? (2) Does he instead buy the attack at its base value, pay 90% of that to have it available only in the AF, and then buy that part of AF with Weird (+50%)? (3) Does he perhaps buy the attack with Weird (+100%), pay 90% of that to have it available only in the AF, and then buy that part of the AF with Weird (+50%)? (4) Does he buy the base 15 points for AF with Weird (+50%)? What benefit does that grant? Does it perhaps mean that only a Weird or Cosmic effect can force him out of the AF? (5) Is there some other configuration I haven't thought of? __________________ Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more.

01-31-2021, 04:55 PM	#2
Say, it isn't that bad! Join Date: Dec 2013	Re: Alternate Form: order of modifiers Well, according to what I read in the GURPS: Furries thread, the answer is: (6) Buy the attack with Weird (+150%) and add an Accessibility limitation of something like "Only in Alternate Form". __________________ In which I post about a TL9-10 solar system http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=169674 If you don't know why I said something, please ask. Assumptions are the death of courtesy. Disappointed in the behaviour I have too-often encountered here.

01-31-2021, 05:21 PM	#3
Ulzgoroth Join Date: Jul 2008	Re: Alternate Form: order of modifiers So, first a point of rules: According to Powers, p74, modifiers (except Affects Others) do not modify the '90% of template cost' portion of Alternate Form's cost, only the flat 15 points per form. Modifiers apply to traits within the alternate form template the same way they would anywhere else. So whatever Enhancement the attack needs to function should be on the attack prior to any Alternate Form wrangling. Modifiers on Alternate Form relate to the shapeshifting process, not the performance of the shifted form in general. And, as noted, they only apply to the fixed overhead part of the cost anyhow. So put a power modifier on there if the ability to adopt the form partakes of that modifier. In some settings, it would make sense to have Alternate Form with one power modifier, giving you a form that has abilities of a different power modifier (or even multiple different power modifiers). __________________ I don't know any 3e, so there is no chance that I am talking about 3e rules by accident.

02-01-2021, 06:18 AM	#7
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Alternate Form: order of modifiers There's no rule that says Power Modifiers must be -10%. That was just a convention for editorial convenience and wordcount in the Powers book. Recall they had all those example abilities, many of which could fit into different powers. If the PMs had different values, the point costs would change for each power. If you make all the PMs the same, at least you can include a catalog of samples that can be ported easily among the powers. GMs wind up with the same choice. It's quite likely that the powers in any particular setting could have a PM that's not -10%. But if so, the players are going to have to do the math again. I never found this a burden, because when I'm building abilities, I'm generally building them from the ground up anyway. But if you have players that don't want to get into that, a consistent PM value will make their life easier. (Plus you won't have to explain why John's ability cost 10 points while Jane's same ability in her power cost 15...)