Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-17-2019, 05:52 PM   #11
isf
 
isf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Jacksonville, AR
Default Re: Need Help Properly Repricing Enchantment Per-Energy Costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
However, to achieve this $5 number you have to follow a deliberately ineffcient proceedure. There's no good reason to Enchant S&S as Master+Apprentices. If you do the Apprentices alone can undercut your price by 40%.

Look at it this way. Journeymen can do 1.5x the work of Apprentices but cost 2x as much to pay. Masters can do the work of two Apprentices but cost 5x as much to pay.

Another thing to consider is if there are spells that can't be enchanted by apprentices and must be cast by journeymen (pr can
t be enchanted by journeymen and must be enchanted by masters)
__________________
Travis Foster
isf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2019, 06:19 PM   #12
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Need Help Properly Repricing Enchantment Per-Energy Costs

S&S is probably something a group of journeyman enchanter would do (master enchanter can make more money through Q&D). For the economics to work out, the cost would have to be around $125/energy point (25x as much as Q&D). That would make a lot of enchantments prohibitively expensive.

An interesting variation of the rules would allow enchanters to reduce energy cost by accepting a penalty. -1 skill for x5/6, -2 skill for 5/7, -3 skill for x5/8, -4 skill for x1/2, -5 skill for x1/3, -6 skill for -1/4, -7 skill for -1/5, -8 skill for x1/6, -9 skill for x1/7, and so on. A master enchanter with Enchant-20 and Powerstone-20 could make a Power 15 Powerstone for 7 energy. With two assistants with Lend Energy, they could do one casting an hour without an trouble. It probably would not change the economics much, but it would allow for more flexibility.
AlexanderHowl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2019, 09:30 PM   #13
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Need Help Properly Repricing Enchantment Per-Energy Costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
S&S is probably something a group of journeyman enchanter would do (master enchanter can make more money through Q&D). For the economics to work out, the cost would have to be around $125/energy point (25x as much as Q&D). That would make a lot of enchantments prohibitively expensive.
Huh? I'm not sure where you're getting either the x25 or the $125 number.

The S&S number seems the easiest to calculate for me, and its $4.6 per point for journeymen (who should be doing it), $3.4 per point for apprentices (who maybe don't have the skill for it) and $8.6 per point for masters (who should be leading circles of apprentices in Q&D). My numbers are a touch higher than Fred's because He's using a 28 day work month, and I'm using the quirky 23.3 work month given in the OP.
__________________
Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

Now recruiting in PbP forum!
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2019, 09:54 PM   #14
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Need Help Properly Repricing Enchantment Per-Energy Costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Huh? I'm not sure where you're getting either the x25 or the $125 number.

T. My numbers are a touch higher than Fred's because He's using a 28 day work month, and I'm using the quirky 23.3 work month given in the OP.
Ah, missed that last part. I thought it was quirky enough that all the months had 28 days. :)

<shrug> Apprentices wee given a number that they could contribute to S&S so I assumed that it was within their capability.

The sort of "Junior Enchanters" who follow the Master's lead in Q&D are capable of doing S&S by themselves in the standard system. The way AlexanferHowl wants to use the term "Apprentice" (i.e. living FP battery) does have a Gurps history but I believe the OP was using that term to mean something else.

I also suspect those muhc higher numbers come fome AlexanddrHowl personal ideas about what mages should make in a TL8 world like ours. They look sort of familiar from previous posts. With the OP calling $800 typical pay for an Average Wealth job that means he's working at TL4.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2019, 10:31 PM   #15
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Need Help Properly Repricing Enchantment Per-Energy Costs

When it comes to definitions relating to spells, I assume that Apprentices have a skill 14-, Journeymen have a skill 15-19, and Masters have a skill 20+. Apprentices are incapable of participating in enchanting directly (they just do not have the minimum skills), but they can indirectly participate through using Lend Energy, making their work worth an Average wage (assuming skill 12+ with Lend Energy). Journeymen can contribute directly, so they earn a Comfortable wage. Masters can coordinate Journeymen, so they earn a Wealth wage.

I use a 22 day month, which is probably too high, but it allows for Sundays and some holidays off, or whatever is the local equivalent in the setting. Once again, characters need an economic reason to be enchanters, if they get an extra day off every month doing tailoring over enchanting for the same amount of work and much less training, they will do tailoring instead. Magical items needs to reflect economic reality as much as anything else, as people will not become enchanters if there is no economic benefit to them.
AlexanderHowl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2019, 10:36 PM   #16
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Need Help Properly Repricing Enchantment Per-Energy Costs

The increased FP+ER actually has a lot of effects. The biggest is that you have a number of breakpoints:
  • 60 energy magic items can be done by 1 master plus 5 apprentices once every 2 hours
  • 90 energy magic items can be done by 1 master plus 5 journeymen once every 2 and a half hours
  • 120 energy magic items can be done by 6 masters every three hours.

The first hour of the day only takes 1 casting, so that's a slight improvement to over-all speed. The master also brings either 10 or 5 extra energy to any given day, which can be spread out over the rituals, though I'm ignoring that effect most of the time.

If you are willing to reduce the energy input of a master to 2 energy per casting, he can lead two separate circles of apprentices, casting with one group each hour. Such magic items cap out at 52 energy.

If journeymen can work with one other enchanter, a pair can turn out a 30 energy item every 2 and a half hours.

Fred's observation that you charge per ritual, not per energy point, is a bit simplified but mostly true. A Q&D M+5A circle making 30 energy items needs and hour and a half per run, making the item cost 75% as much as a 60 energy.

For the actual math. The number of rituals per day is 1+9/hours per ritual. multiply that by 23.3 work days for rituals per month. Then divide the cost of a circle for a month by the number of rituals per month.

For example: 1 master plus 5 apprentices (the 60 energy layout) take two hours per ritual. They have 1+9/2 = 5.5 rituals per day. 5.5 rituals per day time 23.3 days is 128.3 rituals per month. The circle must be paid $8,000 in a month. $8,000 per month divided by 128.3 rituals per month is just over 62$ per ritual, rounded up to $63.

Costs per Item:

30 energy: $30
52 energy: $52
60 energy: $63
90 energy: $112
120 energy: $258

If you only partially upgrade the makeup of a circle, you can get intermediate prices for items. Use the slower of the two casting cycles For example, a 100 energy items needs 2 masters and 4 journeymen, and has a 3 hour casting cycle. That means its cast 4 times a day, requires a salary of $14,400 per month, and costs $155 per ritual.

The above numbers do not account for failed enchantments, brokers, merchants, transport out of specialized urban centers, the second hand market, or mysterious curses.
__________________
Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

Now recruiting in PbP forum!
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2019, 03:37 AM   #17
Sorenant
 
Sorenant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Default Re: Need Help Properly Repricing Enchantment Per-Energy Costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericbsmith View Post
Too quick. On the Solstice - the shortest day of the year - London England gets 8 hours of sunlight. Even Oslo Norway gets 6.

Average sunlight is 12 hours per day throughout the year. During the summer that can be 15+ hours per day; during winter it falls to 9 or fewer hours. All depends on the latitude
I stand corrected. Just so I can shift blame, here's where I got my initial info.
Sorenant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2019, 03:50 AM   #18
ericbsmith
 
ericbsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Binghamton, NY, USA. Near the river Styx in the 5th Circle.
Default Re: Need Help Properly Repricing Enchantment Per-Energy Costs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
I stand corrected. Just so I can shift blame, here's where I got my initial info.
I think that website is talking about sunshine and not daylight, which in context is more about the local weather conditions.
__________________
Eric B. Smith GURPS Data File Coordinator
GURPSLand
The future keeps telling us what the past was about. You make the past mean different things by what you do with the time that comes after.
ericbsmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
enchanted items, enchanting, enchantments, magic

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.