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Old 05-20-2019, 02:13 PM   #11
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

I have a very 'game-ist' perspective on all this, and it leaves me feeling not bothered at all about the various trade offs. You get pre-rewarded for investing in IQ at the start because those are the conditions of the game - they are part of what invests the IQ score with value when you create a character. I find it very telling that basically no one takes maximum advantage of this because they realize that the resulting characters couldn't do anything in play and would get killed. Who out there is really writing up IQ 14-16 heroes? I certainly haven't seen any discussed here or run into one in play. At most, this advantage of early investment in IQ is a motivator to create heroes in the 10-11 range instead of the 8-9 range. And once a character enters play, the 500 XP per talent point cost is just a fact of life for you to navigate as your character gradually gets stronger during their career.
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Old 05-20-2019, 02:39 PM   #12
RVA_Grandpa
 
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

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Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I have a very 'game-ist' perspective on all this, and it leaves me feeling not bothered at all about the various trade offs. You get pre-rewarded for investing in IQ at the start because those are the conditions of the game...

[snip]

Who out there is really writing up IQ 14-16 heroes? I certainly haven't seen any discussed here or run into one in play. At most, this advantage of early investment in IQ is a motivator to create heroes in the 10-11 range instead of the 8-9 range. And once a character enters play, the 500 XP per talent point cost is just a fact of life for you to navigate as your character gradually gets stronger during their career.
I agree. I think the new XP system works fine. Heck we all would like lower XP costs for attributes and talents, it has worked pretty good for the players in our campaign so far.

I joined a campaign back in October last year. I started out with a ST11, DX11, IQ10 character. As he gained experience I added DX, then ST, then more DX, and finally more IQ. I wanted to add talents of toughness and weapon mastery. Right now my PC is saving up the XP to get the weapon mastery.

You can't, as the song goes, get everything you want, but will patience and a little luck you can get all you need.
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Last edited by RVA_Grandpa; 05-20-2019 at 02:42 PM. Reason: additional comment
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Old 05-20-2019, 03:09 PM   #13
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

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Originally Posted by RVA_Grandpa View Post
additional

I agree. I think the new XP system works fine. Heck we all would like lower XP costs for attributes and talents, it has worked pretty good for the players in our campaign so far.
It is not about getting a lower XP cost, I would be fine playing in a game that gives out 25XP per night or 100XP per night. That is a choice of progression speed. But the glitch in the system is making it extremely attractive to start with your final IQ on your char. And that doesn't feel right to me. If I intend to end up with ST14 or DX14 I don't have to start with that, but if I plan on having IQ14 someday, it would be very suboptimal to start with anything but IQ14.

Sure it would make for a one-sided character, but since we have a set XP level per night, we just have to be very careful the first few nights. Once we get a couple of hundred XP and two more attribute points, I would basically have 1000 more Xp than the others?!? And if I actually use that IQ to solve mysteries, avoid combat, use talents, etc, I would be of use to the group in the meantime. I can see no reason why this should be.

And Skarg, about that yellow line. What I tried to say is that improving DX is just as important for a DX based talent as improving IQ and get the second level of said talent. There is very little difference between a fighter that invest in more ST or DX compared to an IQ increase and an expertise or mastery talent. So when we talk about a top "ability" we must discuss all attributes involved. Even when you lack a talent you can usually try it with a -4 on DX or an extra die or two. Which means a high DX guy is just as skilled as a talented guy. So either you start with the technical training or you are all around experience or gifted. The result can often be the same.

Last edited by Nils_Lindeberg; 05-20-2019 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 05-20-2019, 04:11 PM   #14
JLV
 
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

I'm not convinced. It seems to me that to refer to something that someone doesn't like, or finds awkward somehow, as a "rules glitch" is to overstate the case. If folks don't like the rule, change it; that's fine and I will never argue against that -- but I think the rule as written is just fine too.

The entire game is about trade-offs and this is just another among many...
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Old 05-20-2019, 04:55 PM   #15
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

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Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
But the glitch in the system is making it extremely attractive to start with your final IQ on your char. And that doesn't feel right to me. If I intend to end up with ST14 or DX14 I don't have to start with that, but if I plan on having IQ14 someday, it would be very suboptimal to start with anything but IQ14.
My point was just that there aren't any of these IQ 14 heroes kicking around my table. Actually, that isn't entirely fair: I wrote up an IQ 14 hero as a sort of side kick in my party. He is tons of fun because he's an extreme character and knows and does things other characters won't. But he's completely useless as an adventurer and I'm sure he'll be dead soon. If anything, the experience playing him strengthens my conviction that this is not really a problem in the game's design.
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Old 05-20-2019, 05:38 PM   #16
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

High-IQ starting characters are just the most extreme examples of the problem. Their extremity or fragility doesn't make the issue go away. The size of the balance shift to IQ is very large, even for the more moderate examples.
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Old 05-20-2019, 06:21 PM   #17
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

I still don't get it. Either you want to pump an inordinately big number of stat points into IQ when you first create a player character (like, a real one you intend to play), or you don't. The rules can't penalize you for starting with low IQ if you looked at them and decided that is what you preferred.
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Old 05-20-2019, 11:49 PM   #18
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
... The rules can't penalize you for starting with low IQ if you looked at them and decided that is what you preferred.
Only if you never intend to raise your IQ.

I don't know why this isn't more obvious to people familiar with TFT.

I could make a some examples, but I'm loathe to post such to the main forum here because I think it might do more damage as spoilers to new players and encouragement to abuse the rules.

Instead, I'll try to enumerate some points:

* Low IQ not only reduces the number of talents/spells a starting character gets by 1 per, but it also prevents taking higher-IQ talents/spells.

* Any talent/spell point that a character ends up learning after creation in the seeming RAW takes 500 XP.

* 400 XP is the cost for a 32-point character to gain +3 attribute points, raising them to the point where they (if well designed/played) can/will be superior to 32-point characters and (if the GM complies with the 32-points is above average for the population) most people in the game world. So it takes that much experience to learn one trivial 1-point talent.

* There are several valuable talents many adventurers could put to great use even at IQ 9, not to mention higher levels of IQ.

* Therefore, if you consider a 33-point IQ 9 character with some of those talents, he could either have started as a 32-point IQ 9 character with many of those talents already known for free, or, if he had started as a 32-point IQ 8 character, in order to get those same talents after creation, he'd need not only to increase his IQ to 9 (which is all it would take plus some study time in original TFT), but he would need to spend 500 XP per point, which could easily add up to 1000, 2500, 3500 or even more XP to learn those talents after creation, which were free to the character who started at IQ 9.
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Old 05-21-2019, 04:25 AM   #19
Nils_Lindeberg
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default How to optimize your character

How to optimize your character

Look at the XP progression chart, and the amount of XP usually given out in your group per evening of play. Then it is easy to see where on the XP chart you think attributes will be so expensive that they are not really a realistic option.

Let's say that you get 50 XP per night in your playgroup.
And you play once every two weeks.

That is 200 XP per month. This is the attribute progression:
34 1 month
35 2 month
36 3.5 month
37 6.5 month
38 1 year.
39 1.5 years
40 3 years
41 6 years...

Let's say that you think the campaign will probably last a year but if it lasts more than 3 it's a bonus. So your realistic aim will be a 38 point build.

Given that your 38th point cost 1000 XP, your option might be to take 2 talents instead. For some builds, talents are more important, for others not so much. But let's say you value 1 characteristic at 2 talents for the build you have in mind. This means that at 37 points you could either buy 1 attribute or two more talents, it would be an equal choice. And after that it would be all talents and other stuff like staff ST or spells.

Depending on your character concept that might be a 15/14/9 fighter or a 12/14/12 roguish character or a leader (or wizard) type with say, 10/14/14.

If you start the fighter build with IQ 8 you lose 500 XP and most likely another 1000 XP for a couple of IQ 8 talents you bought that you didn't really need, instead of the talents you planned on getting at IQ 9, that you now have to buy at full cost. Let's compare the least important IQ 8 talents you bought with the important IQ 9 ones you really wanted and give them a 50% rebate. So 500 lost XP for the downgrade of two talent points. That is still a total 1000 XP loss on a fighter with a starting IQ 8 instead of IQ 9.

If you go with the roguish build and a reasonable IQ 10 you lose 1000 XP and have maybe 4 downgraded talents for another 50% of 2000 XP that you would rather not have taken at IQ 10 and below, but wanted from IQ 11 or IQ 12. That is still a 2000 XP loss for a 2 point lower IQ.

If you go with the leader type and start with a good IQ of 11. You still lose 3000 XP up front and maybe 6 other talents (1500XP) you would rather have taken at IQ 12, 13, or 14 had you started with a higher IQ. That is 4500 XP!

Even changing your leader type from a start IQ of 11 to a 12, earns you 500 xp immediately, and you could probably get two better talents from those you really wanted, worth another 50% of 1000 XP.

That one point of IQ at the start is still worth 1000 XP and 5 month of playing! 1 point of difference, that you earn back the first night of playing since the first attribute only cost 100 XP and you gain 10 nights of XP as a reward. If you feel that is a little bit insane, it's because it really is!

I know a bunch of players that would quit playing when they find out that if they had just adjusted their character 1 point from the start, they would have earned 10 nights playing worth of XP! Or even worse, they started the leader type of character with a healthy IQ 11 and lost 4500 XP! That would be close to two years worth of playing!

But you say, you can't really expect to survive with an IQ of 14? But even 1 point is worth 10 nights of playing and it only takes 4 nights to get the first 3 extra attribute points and bam!, you have normal starting attributes for ST and DX to compensate for your "insane" IQ 14. So 2 nights of surviving with sub par stats, and then 2 nights with just 1 point behind starting and on the fifth night you are caught up with a starting build. And the reward is that you are 2 years ahead of the others that didn't do it the "right" way.

Sure, you will be one or two attribute points behind the others until they actually go for the higher IQ and the talents that are part of their builds. But that could be from the start or later on, so it is hard to judge. And once you have a viable character, the extra IQ and talents might very well pay off.
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:51 AM   #20
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Weapon Mastery, the long and winding road

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Only if you never intend to raise your IQ.

I don't know why this isn't more obvious to people familiar with TFT.

I could make a some examples, but I'm loathe to post such to the main forum here because I think it might do more damage as spoilers to new players and encouragement to abuse the rules.

Instead, I'll try to enumerate some points:

* Low IQ not only reduces the number of talents/spells a starting character gets by 1 per, but it also prevents taking higher-IQ talents/spells.

* Any talent/spell point that a character ends up learning after creation in the seeming RAW takes 500 XP.

* 400 XP is the cost for a 32-point character to gain +3 attribute points, raising them to the point where they (if well designed/played) can/will be superior to 32-point characters and (if the GM complies with the 32-points is above average for the population) most people in the game world. So it takes that much experience to learn one trivial 1-point talent.

* There are several valuable talents many adventurers could put to great use even at IQ 9, not to mention higher levels of IQ.

* Therefore, if you consider a 33-point IQ 9 character with some of those talents, he could either have started as a 32-point IQ 9 character with many of those talents already known for free, or, if he had started as a 32-point IQ 8 character, in order to get those same talents after creation, he'd need not only to increase his IQ to 9 (which is all it would take plus some study time in original TFT), but he would need to spend 500 XP per point, which could easily add up to 1000, 2500, 3500 or even more XP to learn those talents after creation, which were free to the character who started at IQ 9.
I understand all these things. They are just a list of reasons why you might decide to begin play with a high IQ hero. So do it. Or, if you look at the balance of those benefits vs. the benefits of having a high ST and/or DX and decide you prefer the latter, do that. Or perhaps you think the most advantageous and/or interesting approach in play is a compromise investment of a bit in all three, do that.
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