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Old 08-17-2012, 09:41 AM   #61
Kromm
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Default Re: [DF] Summoned allies questions:

I'll try to sum this up:
Common to All Interpretations
Ally can be summoned at the time and place of your choosing, and no social or practical considerations impinge on appearance. The place can be anywhere you can go, even if the Ally couldn't get there for reasons of size, lack of mobility or stealth, etc., and even if the GM imposes dramatic conditions that allow just one person (yourself) to be present. Until summoned, Ally occupies no space, consumes no food, requires no transportation, and cannot be detected.

If the appearance roll fails, the cooldown is one day, not one full adventure.
These things are what make a Summonable Ally worth the points.

Classic Ally Interpretation
Frequency of Summoning: Once per adventure.
Duration of Summoning: One adventure.
This is no change from a standard Ally, and is worth no points.

Spell-Like Interpretation
Frequency of Summoning: However often you like until you fail and hit the cooldown.
Duration of Summoning: One minute.
This is a big change from a standard Ally, but it's a tradeoff and worth no points.
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Old 08-17-2012, 09:56 AM   #62
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Default Re: [DF] Summoned allies questions

Sorry, I'm still really confused about this (and I really hope this ends up in the FAQ as I'd rather not chase this thread).

So the one day cooldown is exclusive to the one minute duration?

And the per adventure duration version doesn't have a cooldown at all, one summoning/conjuring per adventure and if you fail or dismiss your Ally (or it's dispelled/released by a countermeasure or insulator) that's it?

Since this is a Dungeon Fantasy thread, which interpretation was intended for Allies and Summoners?

What would the cost be to have it work the way I thought it did (whenever you like frequency with the one day cooldown but a duration of one adventure)?
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:10 AM   #63
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Default Re: [DF] Summoned allies questions:

Sorry, I didn't paste in the common condition in one case when I composed my reply. See the edited version.

The important thing about the spell-like interpretation is that you can call up and put away your Ally repeatedly, at will, until you screw up. The classic interpretation doesn't allow that – if you put away your Ally, he's put away for the whole adventure. This is a big deal because while I'm sure that some GMs don't charge PCs per head on ocean voyages, penalize Stealth for group size, require Climbing rolls from everyone, enforce reaction penalties for 10'-tall demons, etc., most do. Then it's really nice to be able to say, "I stash Demonic Dan until this part is over," with the worst-case scenario being that Dan isn't around for a day or two. But there really ought to be something given in return, or Summonable is too good . . . so "something" here is that Dan shows up for a minute at a time, making him valuable in a fight or for bashing a door, but not too useful as a pack mule or long-range scout.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:22 AM   #64
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Default Re: [DF] Summoned allies questions:

I hate to sound like, well, some other people on the forums, but I don't see how any reasonable reader of the rules could have come to that conclusion on their own. Especially with the "a minute seems fairer" thing.

Allies (Summonable) is a transient ability (p. P154*). It lacks a specified duration because it has an instantaneous effect, the appearance of your ally. ...No?

Is this simply a new ruling, based on your having re-considered the fairness of the cost over the years? +100% has always seemed fair for "summonable anytime, stays until dismissed"†. The benefits of having them stick around as long as you like are balanced by the drawbacks of having them around (food, lack of surprise, etc.).


* Yes, I know you probably wrote that. Sorry.
† which has always been my interpretation of the Summonable enhancement. The first sentence of the enhancement's description seems pretty clear that its rules are replacing the "once per adventure" part of Allies.

Last edited by munin; 08-17-2012 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:27 AM   #65
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Default Re: [DF] Summoned allies questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by munin View Post
I hate to sound like, well, some other people on the forums, but I don't see how any reasonable reader of the rules could have come to that conclusion on their own. Especially with the "a minute seems fairer" thing.

Allies (Summonable) is a transient advantage (p. P154*). It lacks a specified duration because it has an instantaneous effect, the appearance of your ally. ...No?

Is this simply a new ruling, based on your having re-considered the fairness of the cost over the years? +100% has always seemed fair for "summonable anytime, stays until dismissed"†.


* Yes, I know you probably wrote that. Sorry.
† which has always been my interpretation of the Summonable enhancement. The first sentence of the enhancement's description seems pretty clear that its rules are replacing the "once per adventure" part of Allies.
Please see the edited version of my explanation. There's no new ruling at all if you use the classic interpretation – everything in the classic interpretation is in the Basic Set and Powers as written. The new part is the spell-like interpretation, which gives a new benefit ("However often you like") and a new drawback ("But only a minute at a time").
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:32 AM   #66
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Default Re: [DF] Summoned allies questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
... The important thing about the spell-like interpretation is that you can call up and put away your Ally repeatedly, at will, until you screw up ...
But isn't that normal for the normal interpretation of Summonable allies in general?

Quote:
Summonable: You conjure your
Ally instead of rolling to see whether
he appears at the start of an adventure
.
To do so, take a Concentrate
maneuver and roll against frequency
of appearance. On a success, your Ally
appears nearby. On a failure, you cannot
attempt to summon him again for
one full day. Dismissing your Ally is a
free action, but you may only dismiss
him if he is physically present. +100%.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:45 AM   #67
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Default Re: [DF] Summoned allies questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Please see the edited version of my explanation. There's no new ruling at all if you use the classic interpretation ...
That's the disconnect I think. I've never interpreted it in that way. As Figleaf23 just pointed out, the first sentence of the enhancement's description has always seemed pretty clear that the enhancement is replacing the normal rules about "once per adventure".
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:48 AM   #68
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Default Re: [DF] Summoned allies questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I'll try to sum this up:
Common to All Interpretations
Ally can be summoned at the time and place of your choosing, and no social or practical considerations impinge on appearance. The place can be anywhere you can go, even if the Ally couldn't get there for reasons of size, lack of mobility or stealth, etc., and even if the GM imposes dramatic conditions that allow just one person (yourself) to be present. Until summoned, Ally occupies no space, consumes no food, requires no transportation, and cannot be detected.

If the appearance roll fails, the cooldown is one day, not one full adventure.
These things are what make a Summonable Ally worth the points.

Classic Ally Interpretation
Frequency of Summoning: Once per adventure.
Duration of Summoning: One adventure.
This is no change from a standard Ally, and is worth no points.

Spell-Like Interpretation
Frequency of Summoning: However often you like until you fail and hit the cooldown.
Duration of Summoning: One minute.
This is a big change from a standard Ally, but it's a tradeoff and worth no points.
I see your point, honest, but as an ACTUAL spell, Summon Elemental/Demon/Planar has a duration of 1 hour for much cheaper. I use allies in a lot of non-combat situations - such as an earth elemental moving rocks on a cavern, a summoned swarm used as a scout (which DF5 states as their primary use...), cheap labor, etc. In Knights of the Dinner Table, Brian used his Brownie as the Face of the party, since it was the only one with a positive CHA modifier - which sounds like a role an Agent or Doubled Servitor or Peace could hold: I do not see the usefulness of a Servitor of Peace that can only aid diplomatic missions for a minute at a time, or a Servitor of Travel that only Navigates for 1 minute!

In seeing your point, I think 5 hour blocks, 4x a day max should be fair - the ally can still serve its function, but must return to it's own plane to eat, rest, and heal.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:48 AM   #69
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Default Re: [DF] Summoned allies questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Please see the edited version of my explanation. There's no new ruling at all if you use the classic interpretation – everything in the classic interpretation is in the Basic Set and Powers as written. The new part is the spell-like interpretation, which gives a new benefit ("However often you like") and a new drawback ("But only a minute at a time".
The confusion, at least for me, is coming from the notion that once dismissed (and presumably dispelled/banished/freed by Power Modifer countermeasures or insulators) the ally is lost for the entire adventure. I had thought that you could for example dismiss your ally while you climbed up a cliff face, and then summon him again at the top to go on your merry way.

What's the cost for an ally that I can dismiss to sneak through the dungeon and summon to guard me while I sleep? Because that's what I thought I was getting in the first place.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:53 AM   #70
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Default Re: [DF] Summoned allies questions:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
The classic interpretation doesn't allow that – if you put away your Ally, he's put away for the whole adventure.
There's a quantum interpretation?
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