Why do Priests exist?

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

For example, I figure a 'Priest' has a focus on evangelizing their faith and coverting the lost souls scattered throughout Cidri.

That too is mostly a Christian orientation, though, and even many/most Christian clergy aren't missionaries (nor exorcists, nor undead-banishers, nor magic healers).

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Skarg

That too is mostly a Christian orientation, though, and even many/most Christian clergy aren't missionaries (nor exorcists, nor undead-banishers, nor magic healers).

Exactly, but the point is that the duties aligned to the Priest talent (vs. those associated with Theologian) need to be spelled out along with their in-game effects in order to make those talents more viable. I also think that, in keeping with TFT's simplified design bias, coming up with a somewhat standardized list to serve as guidelines would only benefit GMs and players. TBH, as currently constituted, I find it difficult to justify use of these talents beyond NPCs.

BTW, do others generally assume that the Priest/Theologian talents are the result of some level of formal religious training (i.e. seminary, divinity school, etc.)?

[Skarg]

I invented some new talents for each religion, including Christianity, but unlike my many later GURPS campaigns, my TFT campaigns only had NPC religious figures, and there were zero to near-zero religious powers.

But if anyone besides the GM had cared, they would have found something like this (for Christianity):

Christianity

Devout - IQ 6 (1+) You take your Christianity extremely seriously and behave as such all day. It's almost impossible for anyone to challenge your devotion. You believe your devotion is extremely important, but whether it has more than social effects is up to the GM. You can spend as many IQ points as you want on this.

Christian Spirituality - IQ 8 (1+) You have a sincere personal spiritual relationship to a Christian context. This will have different meaning and effects for different people. Up to the GM whether it influences any events outside yourself. You can spend as many IQ points as you want on this.

Christianity - IQ 8 (1) You know about Christianity in detail. The studious flock and people who attend regularly and listen have this.

Monk - IQ 8 (1) prereq: Christianity. You know how to be a Christian monk, and probably are one,

Nun - IQ 8 (1) prereq: Christianity. You know how to be a Christian nun, and probably are one,

Priest - IQ 9 (1) prereq: Christianity. You know how to be a Christian priest, and probably are one, Knows some philosophy, much Bible, Church law, etc. Requires years of instruction.

Christian Theologian - IQ 10 (2) prereq: Priest. The knowledge and talent required to behave appropriately and be an effective Christian high cleric. More knowledge of church law, high rituals, church doctrine, politics, sects, orders, factions, history, etc.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Skarg

That too is mostly a Christian orientation, though, and even many/most Christian clergy aren't missionaries (nor exorcists, nor undead-banishers, nor magic healers).

I really do wish this forum had an upvote system.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by Skarg

I invented some new talents for each religion, including Christianity, but unlike my many later GURPS campaigns, my TFT campaigns only had NPC religious figures, and there were zero to near-zero religious powers.

But if anyone besides the GM had cared, they would have found something like this (for Christianity):

Christianity

Devout - IQ 6 (1+) You take your Christianity extremely seriously and behave as such all day. It's almost impossible for anyone to challenge your devotion. You believe your devotion is extremely important, but whether it has more than social effects is up to the GM. You can spend as many IQ points as you want on this.

Christian Spirituality - IQ 8 (1+) You have a sincere personal spiritual relationship to a Christian context. This will have different meaning and effects for different people. Up to the GM whether it influences any events outside yourself. You can spend as many IQ points as you want on this.

Christianity - IQ 8 (1) You know about Christianity in detail. The studious flock and people who attend regularly and listen have this.

Monk - IQ 8 (1) prereq: Christianity. You know how to be a Christian monk, and probably are one,

Nun - IQ 8 (1) prereq: Christianity. You know how to be a Christian nun, and probably are one,

Priest - IQ 9 (1) prereq: Christianity. You know how to be a Christian priest, and probably are one, Knows some philosophy, much Bible, Church law, etc. Requires years of instruction.

Christian Theologian - IQ 10 (2) prereq: Priest. The knowledge and talent required to behave appropriately and be an effective Christian high cleric. More knowledge of church law, high rituals, church doctrine, politics, sects, orders, factions, history, etc.

I applaud your effort to create a heirachy. I've been thinking of something similar that I think would apply to almost all religions...

Faith(religion) IQ 6 (1)
Acolyte(religion) IQ 8 (1) prereq: Faith(religion).
Priest(religion) IQ 10 (1) prereq: Acolyte(religion).
High-Priest(religion) IQ 12 (1) prereq: Priest(religion). [this replaces Theologian]

I consider things like Monk/Nun to be more like sects/orders/specializations within a religion.

I'm still fuzzy on what effects will be there and where but I do plan on adding "spell casting" from memory and written texts in there. In our scientific world, we have Christians, Scientist, and Christian Scientist -- people with Phd's in everything from medicine and psychology to astrophysics who approach learning from a christian perspective. In a world that has magic such as Cidri, it seems natural to me that magic would intermingle with religions. You'd have Christians, Wizards, and Christian Wizards.

[platimus]

Going back to these...

Faith(religion) IQ 6 (1)
Acolyte(religion) IQ 8 (1) prereq: Faith(religion).
Priest(religion) IQ 10 (1) prereq: Acolyte(religion).
High-Priest(religion) IQ 12 (1) prereq: Priest(religion). [this replaces Theologian]

I'm tempted to remove Priest, High-Priest (and Theologian) from my house-rules. Why? From Priest and upwards, these seem more like a social/business status/rank within the organization. We don't have similar talents for the upper ranks of the Wizard's Guild.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by platimus

I'm still fuzzy on what effects will be there and where...

And this is where I keep getting hung up on the existing Priest/Theologian talents... all talents should provide some sort of clear in-game benefit or advantage to justify spending IQ or XP on them and I just don't see this with the current (or even some of the proposed) religious talents.

[platimus]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

And this is where I keep getting hung up on the existing Priest/Theologian talents... all talents should provide some sort of clear in-game benefit or advantage to justify spending IQ or XP on them and I just don't see this with the current (or even some of the proposed) religious talents.

I mostly agree with your sentiments and it is what motivates me to ditch Priest and Theologian altogether and replace them with something else...

[hcobb]

My Theologian that includes a limited subset of wizardly book casting seems almost overpowering to me.

Book casting is a very powerful ability that few wizards seem to take advantage of. IQ 10 spell book is only $200 while a one-use Knock item is $1000.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

And this is where I keep getting hung up on the existing Priest/Theologian talents... all talents should provide some sort of clear in-game benefit or advantage to justify spending IQ or XP on them and I just don't see this with the current (or even some of the proposed) religious talents.

Why should all talents provide some clear in-game benefit?

To me, the purpose of talents such as Priest and Courtly Graces and is to represent something that exists in the game world in an appropriate and accurate way. Some talents are useful for their domain, which is not the domain of most adventurers, and that is appropriate.

There are plenty of advantages to being a priest, even if there are zero magic powers that come with it. They're just socio-economic and specific to the game setting and specific religion, etc. In medieval Europe, being a priest is an awesome advantage, if used appropriately, because it makes you a respected social class and authority, all sorts of people will listen to you and protect you and give you all sorts of things. If you have the job that tends to come with Theologian, you're all set, with plenty of power of income and status.

Although, really those are jobs more than they are talents, and perhaps that's an issue with my talent list, although I do think there should be professional talents to represent competent people who have learned to do those jobs well. That is, in real medieval Europe it's not hard to find many examples of people who were priests, monks, nuns, bishops and even some popes who did not have the appropriate talents for the job.