One on One simulation

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Originally Posted by RobW

Always defend doesn't work if you are lower DX than the pole, as:
Turn 1: pole charges, target defends
Turn 2: pole disengages, target inspects his gear
Turn 3: pole charges, target defends
and loop

Initiative rolls might change the detail, but not the substance, which is that if you have lower DX than the pole in a 1v1 duel, you have to take a chance and not defend. Otherwise the attacks will eventually hit despite the defending and/or the crowd will have you for lack of aggression...

Yup I figured this out too. The sim got some one sided results hehe. But it gets tricky now that I have options for the new 3-hex charge. The main point here is that it is asymmetrical, sometimes you get a set vs. charge because you force your opponent to chose between an uncontested jab or give you the bonus, or you charge but don't get the set vs. charge bonus, or you position yourself in such a way that you have to move more than one or get side attacked and your opponent can close without you getting the 3-hex charge. Tricky indeed.

And if we put in MA into the mix and some sort of time constraint (otherwise they might both wait for the right time and it never comes) it gets really tricky. I have approximated it to a couple of % chances for getting a charge and for getting the set vs. charge bonus.

At the moment those options are set at 75% to get the charge, and 50% after that to see if it is a "lucky" set vs. charge with the +2 DX bonus.

I just got expert, mastery and shrewd options to work and can simulate up to 40p characters. Interesting enough the top of the list last time I checked was a Cutlass, small shield wielding Master Fencer. :-D And then some Javelin masters.

I have weeded out some builds with too low adj DX (set at lower than 7 now). There are some weird builds like ST16, DX8 with full plate that gets sorted out despite being somewhat viable (they go for the auto hit and are not affected by experts and masters DX penalties). If I remember correctly they had a 45% win rate, not too shabby. But most other low adjDX builds do very poorly.

I also weed out adjDX builds with more than 15, since it should be mostly wasted on auto fails. But with experts and masters that give out negative modifiers. Up to -4 for a expert shield wielding Master Fencer. I might have to correct that. I think it is the reason that the cutlass fencer did so well above. And with a defend action against a pole arm charge, they almost never hit at 6 dice. I will soon present a couple of summaries, including most if not all of the current rules.

What is the latest from SJ regarding Pole Arm base-damage? I have an option for different charge rules, +1d6 or doubling damage, disengage tactics, defend tactics, etc. And I have an option for different weapon base-damage. 2+2 for Pike Ax is too high I think and I remember seeing somewhere that SJ was thinking of lowering it a little bit.

Javelins that have mastery (and shield expert) and charges with shrewd do (1-1 + 1d for charge, +2 for Mastery, + 1d+2 for shrewd) 3+3, strikes first and often with only a -2DX penalty in total - crazy! :-) And they give the opponent -3 to their DX and still have 2 point of armor and MA 10-14. Can be built with ST9 DX14 IQ13 = 36pnt and 10+ talents points.

[Rick_Smith]

Originally Posted by RobW

Always defend doesn't work if you are lower DX than the pole, as:
Turn 1: pole charges, target defends
Turn 2: pole disengages, target inspects his gear
Turn 3: pole charges, target defends
and loop

Initiative rolls might change the detail, but not the substance, which is that if you have lower DX than the pole in a 1v1 duel, you have to take a chance and not defend. Otherwise the attacks will eventually hit despite the defending and/or the crowd will have you for lack of aggression...

Hi Nils,
In the last edition of the Melee microgame there was a rule change that said, if someone disengaged from you, you could attack them as they left at a DX penalty equal to the difference in your DX. So if you were DX 12 and a DX 15 person disengages from you, you can attack them as they leave at an adj 9 DX.

This is a quite common rule, I've seen it used in over half the TFT games that I've came across.

So in that case, the lower DX figure has a better chance.

Warm regards, Rick.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Originally Posted by Rick_Smith

Hi Nils,
In the last edition of the Melee microgame there was a rule change that said, if someone disengaged from you, you could attack them as they left at a DX penalty equal to the difference in your DX. So if you were DX 12 and a DX 15 person disengages from you, you can attack them as they leave at an adj 9 DX.

This is a quite common rule, I've seen it used in over half the TFT games that I've came across.

So in that case, the lower DX figure has a better chance.

Warm regards, Rick.

Thanks for the heads up. THIS IS NOW INCLUDED.


Oh and I just got the first test runs with UC working. But I need to check for possible bugs before I trust the data.

Still curious about if Brawl dmg stacks with UC damage and how does double strike work? And will ST scale in any way? And how about kick without penalty, why would you not use it? Even kick with a -1 To Hit is a no brainer. If it is just to make a difference between HTH and normal damage there shouldn't be a penalty, just give two different bonuses.

Personally I would like to see UC follow the same basic set up as the other weapon skills. UC is not harder to master than any other martial art. And there is a reason that most UC competitions have weight classes and not speed tests or IQ tests to classify contenders.

Why not a talent to make unarmed somewhat comparable to a weapon with the same ST, let's say normal weapon for that ST with a -2. Would be balanced as it is always ready, "concealed", coolness factor and hard to disarm in or out of combat. And then an extra bonus in HTH, like a dagger -1.

Then a basic unarmed combat talent that get rid of the -4 to hit, like all other "weapon" talents.

Then Expert and Mastery on top of that. Kicks would be "shrewd" maneuvers.

All the extra stuff like eyes in the back, should be just as available to everyone. Situational Awareness is something some people learn while other do not. It is not unique to unarmed martial artist.

Talents like Nerve Strike could require UC mastery and fist attacks.

Brawl/carousing talent would focus on the non lethal fighting and using improvised weapons.

You get the idea. A grand master might even have more secret talents in his back pocket like the one handed clap, whirlwind sweep, strange meditation talents, and throw mastery, who knows. Just like an old fencing master might have some sneaky extra talents. But the normal ones should use the same set up as the rest.

I want to be able to chose between a strong unarmed combatant, a fast one or talented one. Know there is only one build with a straight progression. Like a D&D class without any choices at all. :-(

[Nils_Lindeberg]

I will soon post about the biggest dragon slayers. :-)

3 dragons:
Basic 4-hex dragon that doesn't breath fire. We have to think of the arena audience. :-)
Expert 4-hex Dragon!
Master 4-hex Dragon!!

[Nils_Lindeberg]

So some results from a 32p, 36p and 40p free for all. And as a bonus Dragon slayer tournament for 40p and 44p Possible with magic items). :-)

The rules are pretty close to the current state of things. Check all the tabs/pages and at the bottom are some of the options used. If you want others, just tell me and I will include them in the document.

There are a lot of hours put into this, so please help me make it better. Tell me if you see any strange data or possible errors.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Best Regards,

Nils Lindeberg

[Nils_Lindeberg]

So update in the post above.

The link goes to the latest version of the data result sets.

Added Florentine fencer builds, nunchakus and a few more UC variations.

I also added nemesis builds, who is the "best" at being a nemesis, etc.

Fixed a few minor bugs, but they tend to make large changes due to the carefully balanced gaming system over all.

All in all a pretty stable version I think.

Point out errors or strange data if you find any and I will explain or if it is a bug correct them.

Add 44p level as well just to show that it doesn't break the system and we can finally see some great sword dominans. The 40 cap is set too low to make them shine. :-)

/nils lindeberg

[Nils_Lindeberg]

So I will take requests if you want to see some specific builds against other specific builds. Or want to add some rules variation or just change the current settings.

And if you have any other ideas on stuff that should be included just post them and I can see what I can do.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

So new update made. No big differences, but more UC builds with scaling of ST is interesting. Same link as above. :-)

[Skarg]

I think it would be interesting to test characters starting at 32 points and then increasing in DX, against themselves and against the typical opponents, with comparison being between the character wearing no armor, and the character wearing more armor, and then lowering the DX penalty of the armor more and more, to determine what the points are where wearing armor actually reduces your combat performance in duels, and at what point it is actually of benefit.

I know that description will confuse almost everyone who just read it, and yet almost everyone with TFT combat experiences realizes that TFT's armor DX penalties are so high that it is foolish for most beginning characters to use heavy armor in duels because it will reduce their own DX so much. Common wisdom is that at some point it may make sense to wear armor because you have enough DX that you can afford the penalty. So I'd be interested is seeing statistics about where that point is.

And then, I'd also be interested in seeing if you reduce the DX penalty that armor gives, at what point is it actually an advantage to wear it into a duel, for which 32-point characters?

Of course the answers will be a little bit dependent on whom you're fighting, but it seems like this sort of analysis could give a useful look at this question. I'd be curious to see how it compares to what I think I know from experience and consideration.

[Nils_Lindeberg]

Absolutely an interesting question. And I was very surprised myself at the current balance of the system. Made me appreciate TFT even more.

I was pretty sure that armor sucked at low levels, but I was wrong. I also thought it was something you bought after a while when your character got more experience. But...

In a one on one duel these general rules apply:

A shield is the ****. You only get about a +1 extra damage for a 2-h weapon and a shield let's you absorb one more for free, no DX penalty. And that kind of evens out. But the advantage comes in your MA staying the same even though you go up to a 3p shield. So all my builds in the sim go with tower shield and Cloth instead of Small Shield and Chain. The second advantage is with the new rules. You can squeeze in an extra talent, shield expertise once you get the IQ for it. And that pays off big time, +1 armor and -1 adjDX for opponent for no real extra cost to you (IQ has already been bought for the weapon expertise).

You want an adjDX in the range of 9 to 12. And the better the opposition (the more expertise and mastery they have) the higher your base DX must be. So a 32p character should have an adjDX of about 11 and a 36p character should probably have 12.

Given that Cutlass or rather a non fencing version of it (let's say Machete) since fencing is a little bit worse off than being a normal Sword Expert. That adjDX requirement kills you. It is the first weapon that get a 2 die base and jumps 1.5 average damage for 1 ST increase. So in the beginning you go for a 2 die 1-h weapon. Take expert if possible on both weapon and shield. And then extra armor is a bonus. It is very close between builds that keep in that range.


As you can see below (or click the link in the posts above and see all the spread sheets).

Naginata rules the lower tier since it is a boosted weapon (and a little OP). You pay 1 talent point and get a +2 dmg boost. At higher tiers it falls off a bit since you need high MA for pole weapons and can't have armor to compensate your increasing DX. Using Naginata with expertise is also a top build, but not quite as good. The reason is probably that you can't take advantage of the shield so you don't get double benefit for that extra IQ. Maybe expertise should give something extra for 2-h weapons to compensate. Maybe +1 dmg.

Then we have the optimal "normal" combination:
The heaviest one handed weapon you can have and still have expertise.
Shield with expertise.
Machete=Cutlass without fencing, just regular Sword expertise.
AdjDX12 Seems to be the sweet spot.
With extra armor you lose a little bit for each size of the shield.
But all three builds are topping the chart.

Then there is a jump in the chart, but not a big one.
If we have to choose between a lighter weapon (than cutlass/Machete) with expertise or max out the 1h weapon, we should go with the heavier weapon. Morningstar with a light shield. You lose slightly with each size of the shield, but not much. They are all top builds. Broadsword comes in at almost the exact same score. So sword and board is still viable.

Mace comes in slightly behind the other builds, but still a 2 die based weapon and with a slightly higher Armor so that adjDX comes down from 13 which is a little bit too high. But we are still talking about 4 armor points for a top tier build at 32p. I would say that is more than viable. We even have a 5 armor point build with the machete/cutlass but it is decidedly lower than the 4 armor point build that is in 6th place. So an ADjDX of 10 is a lot stronger than 9. But then again my sim doesn't take into account the possibility of getting in a random side attack (which would favor low adjDX builds more than high adjDX builds, especially in a bigger melee with many opponents).

The first 2-H weapon to show up, besides the slightly OP Naginata is the Halberd shortly followed by the 2-H bastard Sword. The best builds wins 3 out of 4 but we still have a great mix that wins 2 out of 3. We have one handers, two handers, ST10 to ST13 weapons, with and without Expertise and armor ranging from 0 to 5 points! And the first UC build shows up at 64% win rate. UC 3 8/12/12 with kicks. Exceptional balance over all I should say.

An eclecctic mix I would say. We have ST 15 and ST9 builds with viable win rates of 60ish percent. We have the first dedicated tank build with cutlass, chain and tower shield (6 armor) at 60 win rate and an average of 22 damage absorbed per match up (that is more than twice its base ST).

There is even a half viable build that got culled from the lists that aims for an adjDX of 3, since 5 is an auto hit anyway. Greatsword and plate at 32p... :-)

Looking at the nemesis builds we can see that if you meet a Naginata wielder you should go rapier and expert fencing surprisingly enough or a dagger build!?! In fact the rapier expert fencer is the second best at being a nemesis. So we actually have a great sword build with plate and a dagger build being somewhat viable in top arena fights. Who would have guessed?

So I would say that a lot of armor in a one on one duel is not a bad idea, but usually a percent or two worse per point of armor compared to a build with just higher adjDX, as long as that DX is lower than 13. But aim for that sweet spot of adjDX 10-12 and slightly higher if the opposition is high level and have expertise and mastery so you get a penalty. Shrewd should be used around adjDX 14 if I remember correctly. But overall, if I had to enter a character for a bigger battle than one on one I would take an armored build so I can take on two at a time if need be. Glass cannons tend to be targeted first and so dies first.

So a cutlass/machete expert sword build with cloth and a tower shield would suit me fine. 67% win rate, 5 armor points and -2 adj for the opponent. AdjDX of 9 is on the low side but with a side or rear attack it will not be "wasted" bonus points. And doing 2-1 means that hits of 5 or more will come in regularly and give the opponent another -2 ToHit. And still MA 10. And if it is a dungeon your physicker will be more effective if everyone have some armor.

As for your question about higher tier builds. It is a slight adjustment. At 36 points Morningstar is at the sweetspot and not machete/cutlass. You can have an adjDX of 10-13, have expertise and 4 points of armor or so. Mastery is still a little bit too expensive and the lighter weapons are not up to par anymore. UC 5 enters at number 10 or there abouts, so it is very competitive, but not OP.

If we go up to 40p we still have the morning star expert builds but with more armor, since mastery doesn't pay off double like expertise (with shield expertise). Maybe there should be a shield mastery talent? Great sword and the other heavier weapons can be taken with expertise so they show up in the top 10. But no mastery weapons...yet.

At the very top, at 44p. Only reachable by magic boost and such. Here the chart is taken over by Greatsword mastery builds. And Morning star mastery builds. Once you have heavy armor (like plate and tower shield) and you still have points over to buy mastery and still have an adjDX of 11+ mastery is worth it. UC 5 build 13/17/14 w/ kick is still viable. 15/15/14 with double fist attacks clocks in at 59% which is still viable. So a mix of the two would probably do even better depending on enemy armor.

Over all it seems that you should get adjDx 12ish with a shield, then expert talents, then the heaviest 1-h weapon, then heavier armor, then mastery and then upgrade to the heaviest armor. But pole weapons, 2-handers and UC are competitive all the way up to 44p. Amazing balancing job by SJ and Guys. And if you want a more eastern feeling you let Brawl talent stack with UC. They will not become OP, but they will top the chart barely. :-) Personally I like Naginata (and it is a little more expensive talent wise), so with the d6 charge rule and 3-hex charge (that might be better with a 2-hex charge rule - it would open up more builds with armor for pole arms), pole weapons don't have to be nerfed, at all.

Over all I am very happy with the balance right now. Fencing is my only caveat. Fencing is supposed to be a boost, a slightly better talent than expertise, but now it is the opposite. Remove the adjDX 13 rule or turn it into: if you don't have adjDX 13 you can use it as normal sword Expertise. But it looks worse than it should. I will go back and check the code for Florentine fencing once more. :-)

Here are the top builds for 32p:
76,84 ST10,DX14,IQ8,Naginata No Armor
76,23 ST10,DX14,IQ8,Naginata Cloth
73,99 ST10,DX12,IQ10,Machete,No Armor, Small Shield,Expert
73,97 ST10,DX12,IQ10,Naginata,No Armor,Expert
73,30 ST10,DX12,IQ10,Machete,No Armor, Large Shield,Expert
72,54 ST10,DX12,IQ10,Machete,No Armor, Tower Shield,Expert
71,41 ST13,DX11,IQ8,Morningstar No Armor, Small Shield
70,41 ST13,DX11,IQ8,Halberd No Armor
70,39 ST13,DX11,IQ8,Morningstar No Armor, Large Shield
70,25 ST12,DX12,IQ8,Broadsword No Armor, Tower Shield
69,77 ST12,DX12,IQ8,Broadsword No Armor, Large Shield
69,25 ST10,DX12,IQ10,Naginata,Cloth,Expert
69,13 ST12,DX12,IQ8,Broadsword No Armor, Small Shield
68,23 ST11,DX13,IQ8,Mace Cloth, Tower Shield
67,80 ST13,DX11,IQ8,Morningstar No Armor, Tower Shield
67,21 ST12,DX12,IQ8,Broadsword Cloth, Tower Shield
67,13 ST11,DX13,IQ8,Mace No Armor, Tower Shield
66,96 ST10,DX12,IQ10,Machete,Cloth, Tower Shield,Expert
66,76 ST13,DX11,IQ8,Halberd Cloth
66,68 ST13,DX11,IQ8,Bastard Sword 2H No Armor
65,30 ST9,DX13,IQ10,Javelin,No Armor, Small Shield,Expert
65,25 ST9,DX13,IQ10,Javelin,No Armor, Large Shield,Expert
65,02 ST10,DX14,IQ8,Cutlass Leather, Tower Shield
64,66 ST11,DX13,IQ8,Mace Leather, Tower Shield