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Old 09-23-2020, 11:37 PM   #1
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong (House Rules)

Well, I finally got back to this. Taking most of Skarg's input and also getting rid of the advanced skills idea (I really don't want this much focus on this side tool/weapon). I am going with a more measured approach. Basically added: -4 DX when used like a lasso; reducing the damage to 1-3; must miss intervening figures; and must have an open hex behind. I am going with this:

Whip:
- Normal damage: 1-3
- May be used as a normal combat weapon, but only for range 3 to 5. No range or DX penalty. (unchanged)
- May be used like dagger markmenship throwing. No changes here. No range penalty since whip is not thrown and has a range restriction (only allowed at 3 hex range. ITL pg 120). Of course it still has the DX -6 penalty.
- May be used like a Lasso but with a -4 DX penalty. Only for range 3 to 5. No range penalty.
- Lasso affect vs body or arm may only be done if the foe is less than twice whipper's strength.
- Hex behind whipper must be empty (no wall, tree, friend or foe). Behind is opposite of where he/she is whipping.
- Intervening figures: must roll to miss for each. A failure to miss does no damage and stops the whip attack. (As always, straight down a hex seam avoids figures).
- Note if you used it like a Lasso that each turn the foe may attempt to escape by 3/DX roll. See ITL page 113. Still the affect for the first turn cannot be avoided.


BTW, this is in reference to a previous thread: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=168815

Last edited by Axly Suregrip; 09-24-2020 at 05:52 AM.
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Old 09-24-2020, 08:42 AM   #2
hcobb
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong (House Rules)

The most important fix is to give aware defenders an escape roll from the entangling weapons.
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Old 09-24-2020, 10:20 AM   #3
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong (House Rules)

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
The most important fix is to give aware defenders an escape roll from the entangling weapons.
Note this is already in the rules for Lassos and Whips:

- Note if you used it like a Lasso that each turn the foe may attempt to escape by 3/DX roll. See ITL page 113. Still the affect for the first turn cannot be avoided.

Lassos are inconvenient weapons as once you miss your weapon is done for that battle.

Whips needed something to also balance it when used as a lasso, so I gave it a -4 DX adjustment when used this way.
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:51 PM   #4
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong (House Rules)

The main problem I see with the existing entangling escape rolls (not just for whip but for lasso, bolas and net) is that there is no roll to avoid them in the first place, and several of them have immediately disastrous effects on the target.

i.e. the "Still the affect for the first turn cannot be avoided." part.

Your new limits to double ST targets and -4 DX help a bit in that most people can't whip down a giant, and now a whipper wants quite a high DX to get reliable. But if/when you do have a high DX, you can knock down anyone you can hit at 3-5 hex range.

Why would whipping someone around the body be an automatic knockdown that doesn't take into account any ability level of the target (other than them not having double your ST)?
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:59 PM   #5
phiwum
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong (House Rules)

Skarg, what do you have in mind for bolas? I ask, because I've played with them a bit. They are really, really effective. I limit them somewhat, by requiring no more than two on a belt (although there is no limitation in the rules like that). But those two plus one in hand can be a skirmish changer. Three downed fighters who stay down for two turns instead of one.

You think a simple 3/DX or 4/DX save to avoid getting hit if you're facing the thrower would be the right fix? That would seem to nerf it perhaps too much (at least at 3/DX). What do you have in mind?
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:39 AM   #6
hcobb
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong (House Rules)

Here's my fix for dodging the bola, etc.

http://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#unusual
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:23 AM   #7
phiwum
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong (House Rules)

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Here's my fix for dodging the bola, etc.

http://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#unusual
Thanks. I doubt I'll implement dodge rules any time soon, since one PC is based on throwing bolas.

In practice, I'm not sure they're all that out of whack. But I'd guess a discussion of bolas is a bit off-topic in this thread. I've gotten dinged for an unintentional infraction yesterday, so I reckon I'll tow the line there.
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:33 AM   #8
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong (House Rules)

I don't feel any need to nerf the entangling weapons (lasso, net, whip, bola), as I think there is already a pretty big trade-off involved: you are still alive and largely unharmed after one of them gets you! The end result seems fair to me. Sure, it's good for you if your whip attack succeeds. It's also good for you if your bow shot hits or your spear charge drives home or your fireball spell hits its target. I don't see why the whip should only work properly when the target fails a save but all these other attacks take effect any time the attacker makes his or her roll.

Anyway, the proof of the whip's overall value can be found at the table. Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a fighter armed with a whip consistently mop up well-matched foes in the arena?
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Old 09-25-2020, 09:59 AM   #9
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong (House Rules)

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Skarg, what do you have in mind for bolas? I ask, because I've played with them a bit. They are really, really effective. I limit them somewhat, by requiring no more than two on a belt (although there is no limitation in the rules like that). But those two plus one in hand can be a skirmish changer. Three downed fighters who stay down for two turns instead of one.

You think a simple 3/DX or 4/DX save to avoid getting hit if you're facing the thrower would be the right fix? That would seem to nerf it perhaps too much (at least at 3/DX). What do you have in mind?
My perspective is of someone who is happy to add complexity to have things be more realistic and interesting (to me).

So for me, the right fix would take into account the target's facing (do they see it coming), action (are they focusing on avoiding getting entangled, or are they doing something else), equipment (weapons and shield could interfere with an incoming entangling weapon), DX (can dodge) and ST (great, you whipped someone around the torso - now you have to get them to fall down).

I am also a fan of the original TFT Changing Options rule wording, which made it clear that a figure who moved 1/2 MA or less and who has not yet taken their action, can declare an action (including Dodge or Defend) in response to changing conditions, such as being attacked.

So even just using that existing rule, if the target of an entangling attack moved 1/2 MA or less, can see the attack coming, and hasn't acted yet, they could switch to Dodge to make the attack 4/DX to hit. Combined with your -4 DX to whip-entangle someone, that's starting to look almost sufficient.

I'd still quibble that it makes DX and ST irrelevant, though. Even if someone doesn't see it coming or is fighting someone else, a whip around the torso isn't necessarily going to make someone fall down.

Basically I'd tend to allow someone to Dodge or Defend against an entangling attack as a Change Option, and to choose whether to have that cause the attacker 4/DX to hit, OR to give themselves a saving roll (off-hand, 4/DX - maybe subject to change based on research) to avoid being entangled.

I think a ST contest is also in order for a lasso or whip to pull someone over. Though I haven't studied the reality of such enough to feel like enough of an authority to say what the difficulty should be. Seems to me though that certainly it should be possible that a whip, lasso, or even bolas, can hit and wrap around a target but not result in them falling down, especially if they are standing in place rather than trying to run around.
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:07 AM   #10
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong (House Rules)

Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I don't feel any need to nerf the entangling weapons (lasso, net, whip, bola), as I think there is already a pretty big trade-off involved: you are still alive and largely unharmed after one of them gets you! The end result seems fair to me. Sure, it's good for you if your whip attack succeeds. It's also good for you if your bow shot hits or your spear charge drives home or your fireball spell hits its target. I don't see why the whip should only work properly when the target fails a save but all these other attacks take effect any time the attacker makes his or her roll.
Because "work properly" means the target falls down, loses their action, and has to spend the next turn trying to get un-entangled, and then also has to get back up.

Consider a 2 vs 2 arena fight where 3 of the fighters are normal melee warriors, and one of them is ST 8 DX 16 Whip. The whip person can almost always knock down one foe per turn, causing a foe to lose 2 or more turns of useful action.

On turn one, his ally can Defend or Disengage or end movement not in range while the whipper knocks down a foe at range 3-5.

On turn two, the whipper can fell the other foe, while his ally starts butchering the foes at +4 DX with no worry of being counter-attacked.

i.e. One whip can easily keep two melee foes out of action.


Quote:
Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Anyway, the proof of the whip's overall value can be found at the table. Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a fighter armed with a whip consistently mop up well-matched foes in the arena?
No it can't, if your players aren't munchkins and agree that it would be silly as heck to see a whip squad, or every soldier start out combat with a lasso toss. They don't do it because they don't want the game to be a silly circus of super-whip-trips.

The reason it doesn't exist in reality is because it doesn't work as easily as it does in TFT.
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