Balance issues with certain Imbuement skills, along with possible fixes

[Michael Thayne]

When I first read Power-Ups 1: Imbuements, it immediately struck me that while most of them were just nice bonuses, a couple were a munchkin's delight. If you're playing an imbuement-based build, using Vampiric Weapon frequently (especially if you have an Energy Reserve you can tap to power your imbuements, then refill with Vampiric Weapon) seems like a no-brainer. And the basic version of Penetrating Weapon is fine, but at high skill levels, moving up an armor divisor step for a mere additional -2 seems too easy.

Similarly, among the defensive imbuements from Pyramid #3/04, Energizing Defense and Vengeful Defense both add a +100% enhancement to your DR, seemingly a little too easily.

I'm surprised I can't find more discussion of this on the forum by searching. Is my search-fu failing me? Are there any proposed fixes floating around out there? I'm thinking about doing an Unusual Background tax, something like 10 points for each of Energizing Defense, Vampiric Weapon, and Vengeful Defense, and 5 points per level of Penetrating Weapon above 15. What do people think of that?

[Nereidalbel]

I'm not seeing anything wrong with them. They all require a skill roll, cost FP, and are subject to your Imbue being hit by countermeasures (in most games).

Defensive Imbuements are also somewhat obvious, unless you're willing to risk their use at 1/2 skill +3. And refilling an ER with Vampiric Weapon requires higher skill than most players will achieve, what with being -5 on top of the penalties to leech at a better rate.

I've beaten a player using these Imbuements (PvP is a thing in some games), and it was all too easy to burn through his ER, then his FP.

Penetrating Weapon is also wasted ER/FP if you fail your attack roll or if your opponent makes their defense roll. The only time it's even remotely OP is when the GM throws tin cans that rely on high DR to shrug off attacks, and freely AoA because only the guy with a 2-handed axe has a chance of harming them.

Also, seriously, charging [9] per level of skill? Just outright ban the skills if you don't like them. The only thing I would be inclined to ban for balance purposes is Efficient Imbuement, since that's effectively +5 skill for [1].

[Gnome]

We've played with Imbuements in my group and only found balance issues with Imbued ranged attacks, mostly due to the existence of Conic Blast, Multi-shot, Shattershot, and Shockwave. On the defensive side, Vengeful Defense is a bit too good when applied to shields (since there's no limit on the damage a shield can stop), but fair when applied to armor.

I think the Imbue advantage is already supposed to be the UB that opens up Imbuements of the appropriate power levels, so I wouldn't go the UB route. Instead, I would restrict access to Imbuements you don't want to see.

A few house rules/tweaks that can help:
--never allow Multi-shot to be combined with Conic Blast, Shattershot or Shockwave (this may already be RAW somewhere, but it's not stated in PU1)
--a universal "Imbuements" Talent should cost [10/level]: if you allow a [5/level] Talent for Imbuements, restrict it to a small number of related Imbuement skills (Eldritch Talent in DF is quite unbalancing in the hands of a munchkin)
--make failed rolls on Imbuements cost energy (like failed spellcasting attempts), and make critical failures cost 2 energy and result in some kind of negative side effect (like critical spell failures)
--limit the number of Imbuements that can be applied to a single attack, or the total number of times one can Imbue within a single second

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Gnome

--make failed rolls on Imbuements cost energy (like failed spellcasting attempts), and make critical failures cost 2 energy and result in some kind of negative side effect (like critical spell failures)

Failed skill rolls on Imbuements already cost 1 FP, and critical failures already cost 2 FP. There's no horrible backfire, but, the loss of 2 FP for no effect is bad for your survival in combat.

[Refplace]

My main issue with Imbuements is no real "Under the Hood" info on building new ones. Any attempt at reverse engineering has come up with different math for different ones.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

I'm not seeing anything wrong with them. They all require a skill roll, cost FP, and are subject to your Imbue being hit by countermeasures (in most games).

Skills can be boosted to the point where your effective skill is 14+, and the "countermeasures" point applies to most powers, and the FP cost only goes so far when we're talking about sufficiently powerful abilities.

Defensive Imbuements are also somewhat obvious, unless you're willing to risk their use at 1/2 skill +3.

What if your opponents can't afford not to attack you, though, because you also have decently strong attacks?

And refilling an ER with Vampiric Weapon requires higher skill than most players will achieve, what with being -5 on top of the penalties to leech at a better rate.

But munchkins will try to achieve that skill level, and may achieve it easily in a high-powered game.

I've beaten a player using these Imbuements (PvP is a thing in some games), and it was all too easy to burn through his ER, then his FP.

I never claimed imbuements are an easy path to invincibility. (Curious to know more about builds / overall power level.)

Penetrating Weapon is also wasted ER/FP if you fail your attack roll or if your opponent makes their defense roll. The only time it's even remotely OP is when the GM throws tin cans that rely on high DR to shrug off attacks, and freely AoA because only the guy with a 2-handed axe has a chance of harming them.

Penetrating Weapon is a relatively cheap way to get attacks with high armor divisors. If you don't think this is a big deal, should other methods be cheaper then? Note that I'm not quarreling with the version that gives Armor Divisor (2), but when you have Penetrating Weapon-18 and can roll against skill-14 to get Armor Divisor (5), I feel like that starts to be an issue.

Also, seriously, charging [9] per level of skill? Just outright ban the skills if you don't like them. The only thing I would be inclined to ban for balance purposes is Efficient Imbuement, since that's effectively +5 skill for [1].

This isn't obviously wrong for powerful supernatural skills. Compare the mechanics for Ritual Path Magery.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Refplace

My main issue with Imbuements is no real "Under the Hood" info on building new ones. Any attempt at reverse engineering has come up with different math for different ones.

This is definitely true. But for many imbuements, there's at least an approximate pattern—the level 3 imbuements tend to do stuff that's approximately as valuable as adding +50% in enhancements, with each additional -1 adding an additional +10% in enhancements. The imbuements I singled out in the OP conspicuously depart from this pattern.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Skills can be boosted to the point where your effective skill is 14+, and the "countermeasures" point applies to most powers, and the FP cost only goes so far when we're talking about sufficiently powerful abilities.

At this skill level, Imbuements Guy is splitting his points between 2 skills, while RAWR SMASH Guy is pumping just one skill. Since the one thing you don't get from Imbuements is easier Deceptive Attacks, there's still some advantage to the guy who's just better at hitting people. And honestly, at such a skill level, I'm more concerned about the mage who convinced the GM to allow Death Spells (yes, I did that).

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

What if your opponents can't afford not to attack you, though, because you also have decently strong attacks?

They do nothing to help you against grapples. Vengeful Defense does nothing when the attack is non-damaging!

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

But munchkins will try to achieve that skill level, and may achieve it easily in a high-powered game.

Munchkins are a problem with everything. Balance the issue with enemies that will make defense rolls and/or have Injury Tolerance. Diffuse kind of makes Vampiric Weapon a bit bleh.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I never claimed imbuements are an easy path to invincibility. (Curious to know more about builds / overall power level.)

I only hit him with Defensive Attacks, the occasional Feint, and used AoD once or twice. Wearing somebody down when you aren't using any powers that cost FP yourself is fairly simple in a 1-on-1 fight.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Penetrating Weapon is a relatively cheap way to get attacks with high armor divisors. If you don't think this is a big deal, should other methods be cheaper then? Note that I'm not quarreling with the version that gives Armor Divisor (2), but when you have Penetrating Weapon-18 and can roll against skill-14 to get Armor Divisor (5), I feel like that starts to be an issue.

Getting Armor Divisor through anything but enchantments is cheap, anyway. The rules for Modifying ST-Based Damage end up making armor-piercing Strikers cheaper than Imbuements, and those don't even cost FP. The real issue is a shortage of ways to give armor Hardened DR, and throwing that in on occasion is a fairly big dent in Penetrating Weapon.

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This isn't obviously wrong for powerful supernatural skills. Compare the mechanics for Ritual Path Magery.

Raising your skill caps canonically costs a perk. [1] to increase the cap of all Paths is basically nothing.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

This isn't obviously wrong for powerful supernatural skills. Compare the mechanics for Ritual Path Magery.

That is an idea I might use.
Lets say your building Angel Runes from the series Shadowhunters.
They have lots of Runes but Imbuements seem to be the best overall fit, other then MA.
So you have a Rune skill that acts as a skill cap like Thaumatology does for RPM.
High point games will still allow high skill but its more manageable in medium level games.
Also ties things together.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Refplace

My main issue with Imbuements is no real "Under the Hood" info on building new ones. Any attempt at reverse engineering has come up with different math for different ones.

Yeah, this is pretty much the only problem I have with Imbuements, and why I'm not inclined to use them. While better balanced, they suffer the same problem basic Magic does.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

At this skill level, Imbuements Guy is splitting his points between 2 skills, while RAWR SMASH Guy is pumping just one skill.

This is very important to keep in mind - while having Penetrating Weapon at 18 to get AD (5) is great, putting those same points into Broadsword means something like a +7 (assuming DX 12) to hit and +3/+4 to Parry, which is huge. Up against a foe who is heavily armored (as in, so-armored-you-can't-hurt-him) head-to-toe, Imbuements win out, but if he has even a single hit location that lacks such impenetrable armor, your higher Broadsword skill completely negates (or drops to -2 if you can only go for the eyes) the hit location penalty, and you have a much higher defense to boot.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

Raising your skill caps canonically costs a perk. [1] to increase the cap of all Paths is basically nothing.

RPM actually has two caps - the Magery-based one that you can raise with a Perk, and a Thaumatology-based one that, to my knowledge, cannot be circumvented. Thus, each level of Path skill above 12 does indeed cost around [9]/level.