Dungeons and Dragons Exploring a New Edition

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by Palmer

Except for D&D, GURPS and Hero, the ENTIRE RPG market wants complexity reduced. This is not a D&D thing. On the scale of simple (1) to complex (10), D&D 4E is an 8 and GURPS is a 9. Most games these days are coming in at 5 or less.

Complexity is the #1 complaint about Burning Wheel.

As for the 4E failure metric...
It didn't recapture most of the 3.x fans.
It didn't add more fans than it lost.
It didn't attract many old-school fans.
It didn't get much 3rd party support.
It didn't capture a lot of new players - it was overcomplex for many.
It didn't maintain the profit margins of 3.X.
It didn't maintain the sales numbers of 3.X
It didn't maintain the "look and feel" of D&D.
It didn't get much critical acclaim.

It was a playable game, and did create a new D&D market share... but the market share lost most of the old players.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Palmer

It has been mentioned that their design goal is to have a barebones system to hang the game off... and then make as much as possible into optional "plug-ins". No issue with that, nice approach, lots of groups already play this way.

And then I just read this from Monte:

http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.a...d/4ll/20120116

This sounds sort of like GURPS 4e's Bang skills. and secondary attributes.

[D10]

Gotta admit, Monty always finds a way to impress me, ill give it the benefit of the doubt because of him, lets hope its a good game.

[Palmer]

Originally Posted by Pragmatic

@ Palmer:

I'm pretty sure that people are calling 4E a failure, not based on a comparison to other publishers, but based on a comparison with what time-and-money was invested into it.

Which I believe is the point that people are making about 4E. A LOT of money has been invested in it, and it hasn't been the runaway bestseller that it was projected to be.

It was the #1 bestseller for years. The slip compared to PF has only been in the last 6 months.
Even now, it's selling better than any previous edition was after 5 years.
If the only criteria for failure is "slipped below expected bestseller status" then pretty much every single edition of D&D is a failure.
Nobody ever called 2nd Edition a failure, even though TSR had hundreds of thousands of units of unsold product warehoused for up to a decade.

I don't see how several years of being the best, followed by a massive slowdown in production, with corresponding slowdown in sales, makes a failure.

It's a simple fact of RPG publishing. Supplements sell less than core books, adventures sell even less than that... and most of all, the later in a game's life cycle a product is released, the less it sells period. 4E is obviously late in it's life cycle

Because until it reaches ENOUGH profit (i.e., the point where it was a better return on their investment than selling off the brand and investing the money elsewhere), it was a failure.

Don't compare 4E's success to the other publishers. Compare it to what Hasbro executives were expecting.

By your own criteria, it's a success then.
After all, it's made enough profit to justify a new edition, and to spend several years worth of salaries on developing a new edition that won't have any payoff for some time.

Most relevant - they have not sold the brand off.

Therefore it's clearly a success.

[Graham]

Originally Posted by Palmer

Even now, it's selling better than any previous edition was after 5 years.

Five years? Maybe I've misunderstood you, but D&D 4e was released in June 2008, so it's been on the shelves for just over three and a half years.

Graham

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

As for the 4E failure metric...
It didn't get much 3rd party support.

Stopping using an open game system and OGL, and the requirement for publishers to support either 3.x or 4, not both, sent a pretty clear message that third-party support was no longer considered important by Hasbro.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Stopping using an open game system and OGL, and the requirement for publishers to support either 3.x or 4, not both, sent a pretty clear message that third-party support was no longer considered important by Hasbro.

No. It was an ham-fisted attempt to force 3rd parties to adopt 4E...

The state change was when they migrated to DDI as the be-all-end-all solution.

When they got to that point, 3rd party support became impossible to use with the tools provided.

[Palmer]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Stopping using an open game system and OGL, and the requirement for publishers to support either 3.x or 4, not both, sent a pretty clear message that third-party support was no longer considered important by Hasbro.

And how many games actually get 3rd party support?
Very very very few.

One of the biggest complaints about 3.x was, in fact, all the 3rd party support. Specifically, the endless supply of unbalanced, untested splat-stuff, even from "big name" companies.

I much prefer games with very limited 3rd party "support", or support that is somehow vetted.

If I go to RPGNow, there are 5359 items filed under OGL/d20
The number of GOOD items out of that 5000 I can probably count on my hands. The number of hours it takes to wade through all the crap to find them is countless.

[smurf]

The analogy I draw on is DnD is like Ford. Everyone knows and loves it, everyone knows there is better stuff out there, but because of market saturation (not just advertising) people cling to their safety net of a trusted brand.

Although I did not buy DF (cash issues) I realise the fun it would be to run a parallel game of a Dungeon Bash to the bigger RPG arena.

It's another wait for the DnD beast to roll buy and all those happy faces to greet its arrival.

[Pmandrekar]

Originally Posted by Palmer

And how many games actually get 3rd party support?
Very very very few.

One of the biggest complaints about 3.x was, in fact, all the 3rd party support. Specifically, the endless supply of unbalanced, untested splat-stuff, even from "big name" companies.

I much prefer games with very limited 3rd party "support", or support that is somehow vetted.

If I go to RPGNow, there are 5359 items filed under OGL/d20
The number of GOOD items out of that 5000 I can probably count on my hands. The number of hours it takes to wade through all the crap to find them is countless.

Exactly right, in my view. One of the strengths of GURPS 4th Ed is that anything to come out with that system comes with some reasonable guarantee that someone read the underlying material and is familiar with the rules. Even Non-SJGames stuff published for GURPS is pretty darn good, and I've been tempted to run a Star Trek campaign at one point or another using the GURPS PRime Directive rules.

-P