Altering the Initiative Order

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Witchking

Beyond Erics point...if you can step down at any time...Why even Have a Wait manuver?

The main purpose of the Wait maneuver is the interrupt ability, slowing down shouldn't even be considered part of Wait...


If you're just using less Basic Speed, like using less ST, that's not a Wait, that's just a lower spot on the initiative order, since Basic Speed doesn't actually have any effect after initiative order is determined.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

...If someone casts a spell on me during combat that raises my Speed, will that change my place in the order?

This seems like a very pertinent question. I'm not a big Magic buff -- does anyone know the answer?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

FWIW I agree with Witchking's summary. The no further step downs is supported by the Turn Sequence rule from the Basic Set, which I quoted much earlier in the thread:

The sentence certainly seems clear. The problem is that in the context of this discussion, it is starting to seem arbitrary and insufficiently nuanced.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

This seems like a very pertinent question. I'm not a big Magic buff -- does anyone know the answer?

The Turn Sequence rule seems pretty clear to me, changes in Basic Speed don't affect Turn Sequence unless they are done before combat begins. To me this is just a KISS rule, as it keeps all the "bad stuff" that can happen with variable Turn Sequence from happening, and keeps the flow of combat relatively simple.

As I said earlier, a completely realistic way of handling it would be variable turn lengths based on a combination of Maneuver & Action chosen and the characters Speed, but that would be neigh unplayable in a table top RPG.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

The sentence certainly seems clear. The problem is that in the context of this discussion, it is starting to seem arbitrary and insufficiently nuanced.

It pretty much is arbitrary, but so are most other quantifiable things in RPG's. The difference between ST 12 and ST 13 is pretty arbitrary, as is the difference between moving 6 yards per second and moving 7 yards per second, or the difference between 5 points of damage hurting your arm and 6 points of damage crippling it. It's all pretty arbitrary, but arbitrary points must be set to make a game playable.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by ErhnamDJ

...If someone casts a spell on me during combat that raises my Speed, will that change my place in the order?

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

This seems like a very pertinent question. I'm not a big Magic buff -- does anyone know the answer?

My understanding is that it wouldn't change the turn sequence, so I agree with Eric. Nevertheless boosting basic speed would raise basic move and dodge and that's the most important benefit of such a spell ;)

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

The Turn Sequence rule seems pretty clear to me, changes in Basic Speed don't affect Turn Sequence unless they are done before combat begins.

I'm still trying to figure out where it says that you can change it at the beginning of combat.

The child herding example seems problematic. You wouldn't actually run this as a combat but even if you did what happens when little Johnny starts to toddle into the street? Is the alert caretaker still restricted to Johnny's Basic Speed? It seems to me that child-herders are taking Waits to interrupt the children with a Ready if they need to.

[BaHalus]

Originally Posted by Witchking

Beyond Erics point...if you can step down at any time...Why even Have a Wait manuver?

The wait maneuver don't change your position in the sequence, it lets you interrupt someone action and even attack someone twice, as someone pointed before.

The delaying would be more like a limited form of do nothing maneuver. You will effectively lose part of the turn to change the sequence order. The only way to get back to the old sequence would be delaying again, effectively losing a whole turn.

So, different things with different Good and bad consequences.

As I see it would neither be unbalancing or make wait useless.

The only problem I see is that, if used too much, it will add a lot of complexity to the fight.

Possible complexity problems: duration of spells and multiple characters changing positions at the same time and/or many times in a row.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by BaHalus

The wait maneuver don't change your position in the sequence, it lets you interrupt someone action and even attack someone twice, as someone pointed before.

Or it lets you delay your action to coordinate with slower PCs; which is what we are talking about. If you can just change your effective Basic Speed at whim to do this, why would you ever take Waits to do so?

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm still trying to figure out where it says that you can change it at the beginning of combat.

It's just that the sequence is determined at the start, nothing more AFAIK.
And in the process of setting the order in which everyone is acting, it's no problem to tell a lower basic speed than the character would having going at max speed.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by OldSam

It's just that the sequence is determined at the start, nothing more AFAIK.

It's determined by your Basic Speed; and it should be your best potential Basic Speed, IMO.

And in the process of setting the order in which everyone is acting, it's no problem to tell a lower basic speed than the character would having going at max speed.

The problem is there is no logical reason why a character who chooses to slow his reactions couldn't choose react at full speed at any time if he wanted to; when little Johnny toddles toward the street, Mommy doesn't have to wait helplessly, she can just scoop him up.