11-23-2011, 08:08 AM | #11 |
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oklahoma City
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Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons
A bit of an update:
Firstly, when I've been referring to Basic Set bows/crossbows, I should have been referring to Basic Set/Low-Tech, since they work together (and there are a few more varieties). The "average" sample crossbow in TDS is (AFAIK) a match for the Military Crossbow/TL4; the (cinematic) damage for the (ST22) sample is 1d+1(2), while the damage for the Low-Tech version (at ST22) is 2d+5 (converted to 3d, I think)—so, around 3x damage, neverminding the armor divisor. On the low end, the "regular" LT Crossbow/TL2 at ST10 damage is 1d+2; I don't think dividing damage by 3 will work out to much, but then that might line up with some of the initial results I was getting from the spreadsheet, which was less than pathetic. The Military Crossbow is a bit easier to work out from the description; steel bow, and all. What exactly is the Crossbow/TL2, as far as composition, size, etc. goes? If I can, at least, get a good low and high end, that might be enough to establish a general trend; ideally, I would like to get enough of a trend that I could use the "realistic" damage. OTOH, as has been suggested, it might be just as good to "build" all the BS/LT bows/crossbows from scratch in TDS—there aren't that many—and replace them with the TDS version. I would either need specifications for all of them (a general "ball-park" guess, at least), or a way to use the spreadsheet to reverse-engineer the BS/LT stats.
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11-23-2011, 08:43 AM | #12 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons
Quote:
You do understand that 2d+5, or 12 points on average, is an insane amount of damage for even this military crossbow? That's more than a 9mm pistol, which probably has 4-5x the energy and half the cross-sectional area? If you're looking for a crossbow that does even cinematic damage on that order, you're going to have a hard time. You'll need something like 600 J or more of energy, and that 740-lb. draw medieval crossbow I linked to earlier only had a velocity of 135 fps or so! So, what you're trying to do, I think, is extract very unrealistic damage values from a hyper-realistic design system: the odds are not in your favor. Now, if what you want is a series of crossbows, each of which does (say) a point or two more damage, that's a more reasonable goal. The highly-interactive nature of the design system, which says "more load, thicker limbs. Thicker limbs, less efficient. So higher load, etc." means it's not as easy, but it's doable. What I'd do is first design a bolt for something monstrous, like a 2d(2) type crossbow. Use TL4 steel and a 3-4' span, maybe 7-9" of draw length on a 14-16" bolt. Then dial it back, reducing the span width and draw force (and limb thickness) until you get a 2d-1 bow. Then 1d+2, 1d+1, etc. Remember that the third or fourth worksheet of the spreadsheet gives you all the pertinent stats on one line, ready for copy and Paste Special (Values) into a summary table.
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11-23-2011, 08:55 AM | #13 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons
Quote:
Let me start with a very high ST bow: a hypothetical 2,000-lb draw seige crossbow with a four-foot TL4 steel span and 8" draw length. They will all be recurved, with oak stocks 36" long. The limbs are a 4:1 rectangular cross-section. Looks like the design doesn't close: I need wider spans or a wider limb (higher width to thickness ratio). Let's try increasing the aspect ratio first. Looks like I can't really get there without an unusually high cross-section. But I CAN get a 7" draw with a fairly reasonable 5. We'll keep that. For the arrow, I make it 3/4" diameter, 14" long, ironwood for the density, and a heavy AP point. That gives heavy quarrel (2255 grains, or a bit over 5 ounces) for maximum efficiency. And look at that . . . here's a 2d(2) crossbow using the cinematic damage scale. Code:
Bow Stats Draw Weight 2000 MinST 36 Draw Length 7 Damage 2d+0 (2) imp Acc 4 -1/die dmg Range 182 1/2D Range 182 Max Range 182 Weight 30.7/0.32 Bulk -8 Cost (Bow/Arrow) $3520/$13.57
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11-23-2011, 09:03 AM | #14 | ||
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oklahoma City
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Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons
Quote:
What I'm trying to do is figure out what the stats for the listed weapons in BS/LT should be, using TDS Quote:
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11-23-2011, 09:25 AM | #15 | ||
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons
Quote:
Well, it takes a man with ST 22 to span a crossbow that does damage like the one that's listed for ST 10 in the Basic Set. So that's not a bad place to start. That one's 750 lbs and an 8-9" draw, with 36" span. Quote:
If you look at the modern equivalents, you'll find a rough basic similarity in spans for big crossbows. About 2.5' and up, but the hugely superior materials allow for a much more efficient bow, with lower mass and more draw length. Here's a thought: keep the 7-8" draw length, but make ten bows, as follows: Code:
Poundage Span 750 36 850 37.25 950 38.5 1050 39.75 1175 41 1300 42.25 1425 43.5 1550 44.75 1700 46 1850 47.25 2000 48.5 That will give you a family of bows that is a threat, fairly easy to envision, and with arrowhead choice (AP vs not) will range from 1d to 4d in penetration equivalent.
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11-23-2011, 09:39 AM | #16 | |
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oklahoma City
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Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons
Quote:
What about for TL3? My understanding is that they should be using a horn/sinew composite, but that could be way off. Or would "military" be using TL3 "quality" steel (=TL4, as discussed)? And would the "typical" draw be the same?
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11-23-2011, 10:08 AM | #17 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons
Quote:
Horn/sinew would require, I think, a different design. Longer draw length, so you could use lighter poundage bows. You could also use some sort of wood/sinew composite, and such "backed' bow limbs were not unheard of. I look at "TL4" steel as "fine TL3 steel," and "TL5 steel" as "very fine TL3 steel," if you allow such things (TL4 being fine-quality steel works fine; there are some very high-quality pieces out there; they're just one-offs).
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11-23-2011, 10:14 AM | #18 | |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons
Quote:
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11-23-2011, 10:19 AM | #19 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons
Quote:
This basically means you need a 100-lb. loading device for a 30-35-lb. crossbow. :-)
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11-23-2011, 10:24 AM | #20 |
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Oklahoma City
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Re: [Pyramid 3/33] Reverse-Engineer Basic Set Weapons
I guess one assumption we have to evaluate is whether the average (or even low-end) crossbowman is actually ST10 (much like the fact that the low-end longbowman couldn't possibly be ST10).
Nearly all combat crossbows I've ever seen have a stirrup, at least—so that'll get a ST10 mook a ST12 draw. I'm not sure if a belt-hook's benefit stacks with the stirrup—if it does, that's up to ST14 draw. With a goat's foot+stirrup (commonly seen, also; again, not sure if it stacks), I think that gets a ST16 draw. Anything beyond that needs a windlass/crank, and that's going to render it mostly-useless in "normal RPG combat" except as a one-shot—which is, maybe, realistic. I think a ST14 guy can draw the 750lb crossbow with goat's-foot+stirrup (or ST12+Crossbow Finesse, etc.)
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