multiple damage, weapon master and other weirdness

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

exacpt the Rules NEVER treat 'natural weapons' and 'weapons' to be synonymous. natrual weapos is NOT a subgroup of 'mussel powered weapon' but instead, instead special abilities on UNARMED damage.

One of the reason for the need to DF mosnters to take Strikers, not just Claws and teeth, else the fall afoul of the attacking armed opponents unarmed rules.

That your natural weapons can take damage from parries doesn't mean they're not still powered by your muscles. They include punches and kicks if you don't claws or Sharp Teeth. And in the English language, 'natural weapons' are definitely a subset of 'weapons'. I'm assuming here that the GURPS books were written in English, of course... ;-)

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

That your natural weapons can take damage from parries doesn't mean they're not still powered by your muscles. They include punches and kicks if you don't claws or Sharp Teeth. And in the English language, 'natural weapons' are definitely a subset of 'weapons'. I'm assuming here that the GURPS books were written in English, of course... ;-)

No there written -- like all rules -- in 'technical English' were words have rules defined meaning that used in 'communication English'

And one of the definition of a Weapon in GURPS is you don't fall under the unarmed parry rules when using them, so the separate category for 'natural weapons, Which includes a human fist, does not match this deftion tells you they are not with the GURPS category of Weapons, hences not part of the subcategory 'mussel powered weapon' in GURPS

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

No there written -- like all rules -- in 'technical English' were words have rules defined meaning that used in 'communication English'

And one of the definition of a Weapon in GURPS is you don't fall under the unarmed parry rules when using them, so the separate category for 'natural weapons, Which includes a human fist, does not match this deftion tells you they are not with the GURPS category of Weapons, hences not part of the subcategory 'mussel powered weapon' in GURPS

Well, I never thought they were powered by bivalves, no.

And as a technical writer, even when writing within a particular field, generally any compound phrase 'adjective noun', such as 'natural weapons' or 'torque wrenches' is indeed a Boolean subset of 'noun', e.g, 'weapons' or 'wrenches'. That natural weapons are subject to different rules for being parried than other weapons doesn't make them not a subset of weapons.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Well, I never thought they were powered by bivalves, no.

And as a technical writer, even when writing within a particular field, generally any compound phrase 'adjective noun',

except when defined otherwise. like this has been.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

That natural weapons are subject to different rules for being parried than other weapons doesn't make them not a subset of weapons.

yes it does when they are ALSO defined as being as used with 'unarmed skills' which is also defined as 'without weapons'

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

except when defined otherwise. like this has been.

I can't find the line in Characters that says, 'natural weapons are not weapons'.

Originally Posted by roguebfl

yes it does when they are ALSO defined as being as used with 'unarmed skills' which is also defined as 'without weapons'

I find it easier to believe that a subtle distinction is being drawn between 'arms' and 'weapons' than that 'natural weapons' is not logically a subset of 'weapons'.

BTW, is the cestus not a weapon? After all, it's used with an unarmed combat skill, yet if you have one, you are not, in fact, unarmed in the sense of not having a weapon...

Anyway, since my interpretation doesn't include anything ridiculous or unbalancing such as stacking WM damage bonuses with bonuses from the unarmed combat skills (since they're the same sort of skill-based bonus and logically only the highest would apply), the main effect of this ruling would be to allow Weapon Masters (All) to strike and parry as rapidly with their bare hands as with the sorts of weapons they pick up and hold in those hands, but no harder than would otherwise be the case.

[roguebfl]

The only time GURPS lumps Natural Weapons in with Weapons (which Muscle Powered Weapons is a Subcategory there of) is when the Talk about 'Melee Weapons' Which BTW also include the Force Sword with is neither a Natural Weapon nor a Muscle powered weapon.

Witch is why they are on the 'Melee Weapon Table' not the 'Muscle Powered Weapon Table'

Given the Heading "Unarmed Combat" (p.370) tells you "See the Melee Weapon Table (p.271) fir the reach, damage, etc of punches, kicks, and other unarmed strikes" Telss you right there the table does not defined what a weapon is!

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

The only time GURPS lumps Natural Weapons in with Weapons (which Muscle Powered Weapons is a Subcategory there of) is when the Talk about 'Melee Weapons' Which BTW also include the Force Sword with is neither a Natural Weapon nor a Muscle powered weapon.

Witch is why they are on the 'Melee Weapon Table' not the 'Muscle Powered Weapon Table'

The word weapon is enough for me. As to Force Swords, they may not be muscle-powered, but punches and kicks definitely are.

Of course, you realize if you're right about Force Swords, there can be no such thing as Weapon Master (Force Sword), despite its listing in Martial Arts, right?

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Given the Heading "Unarmed Combat" (p.370) tells you "See the Melee Weapon Table (p.271) fir the reach, damage, etc of punches, kicks, and other unarmed strikes" Telss you right there the table does not defined what a weapon is!

Nope, the table doesn't define it. Them being called natural weapons does.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Nope, the table doesn't define it. Them being called natural weapons does.

I can't believe I have to remind you that the name of a category in GURPS doesn't imply anything other than the category is called that name :) It definitely doesn't imply inheritance of properties from other categories that share elements of the name.

This is pretty standard English rules - things have similar names just because they're SIMILAR, not because they're actually complete subsets of each other.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I can't believe I have to remind you that the name of a category in GURPS doesn't imply anything other than the category is called that name :) It definitely doesn't imply inheritance of properties from other categories that share elements of the name.

This is pretty standard English rules - things have similar names just because they're SIMILAR, not because they're actually complete subsets of each other.

Sorry, no. Red birds are a subset of birds, flightless birds are a subset of birds, carnivorous mammals are a subset of mammals, bladed weapons are a subset of weapons, mild steel is a subset of steel, totalitarian regimes are a subset of regimes... yep, if you take a general category noun and modifiy it with an adjective, then the resulting phrase is indeed generally a proper subset of the general category. There are certainly exceptions, but nobody's given me a good reason to think this is one of them.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Sorry, no. Red birds are a subset of birds, flightless birds are a subset of birds, carnivorous mammals are a subset of mammals, bladed weapons are a subset of weapons, mild steel is a subset of steel, totalitarian regimes are a subset of regimes... yep, if you take a general category noun and modifiy it with an adjective, then the resulting phrase is indeed generally a proper subset of the general category. There are certainly exceptions, but nobody's given me a good reason to think this is one of them.

Ecape 'natrual weapons' is not a adjunctive noun, is GURPS bust a compound now,

natrual is part of the noun, not a descripter of it.

Chucky Cheese, is not Cheese that is Chuck like.

and is not a member of the Cheese stores, but a member of pizza stores.