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Old 09-19-2016, 12:41 PM   #31
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: [MH] Point Inflation

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Originally Posted by VariousRen View Post
True, not every foe will fight in the same way, but it still suggests a way of thinking in that genre. If a cultist runs at you and tries to stab you, they'll hit unless you react and stop them somehow. You can't rely on normal misses to protect you, you have to put your opponents in a situation where the penalties make a difference.

High skill levels forces you to handle problems through hyper-competence, instead of exploiting enemy incompetence.
If they've got even one point in the skill they're attacking you with, that's generally going to be the case. Telegraphic Attack means that even the marginally competent can roll hits reliably. Even if you're not willing to have them All-Out Attack (Determined), which is a highly appropriate move for cultists.
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Old 09-19-2016, 01:46 PM   #32
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: [MH] Point Inflation

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
The Monster Hunters series has 400 point player characters as the default assumption. While 400 points is very high, I can see the appeal in having such extraordinarily powerful characters.

However the enemies in The Enemy makes me wonder if not a large part of the effect of those points is lost in a general inflation of abilities. Take a look at the Cultist (which serves as minions for more powerful enemies and are among the weakest enemies in that book). While they lack in versatility, they have roughly as many points in directly combat applicable traits as the navy SEAL template in Seals in Vietnam!

Why have the players start with characters with that many points if you are just going to scale up the rest of the world to compensate? Does it really feel like you are playing 400 point characters when a cultist has combat capabilities on par with a navy SEAL and a Slow Zombie has Brawling and Wrestling skills of 13? Is there a good reason to make everyone that capable or is it just pointless inflation of numbers?
Actually I'm pretty sure that Vietnam SEALs using that template and armed with their historical loadout would just utterly slaughter a bunch of berserkers with knives, clubs and swords, pistols at best most of the time. Point totals are not everything. But that's beside the point., There is a reason to make, say zombies, that capable. Against regular people they actually win despite their substantial handicaps. In the movies if a zombie, even a slow zombie, actually gets within arms reach of anyone who isn't a badass action hero then what happens next isn't pretty.
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Old 09-19-2016, 02:12 PM   #33
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: [MH] Point Inflation

In general, I think it pays off in many ways to use restraint in character points.

It can defeat the purpose of playing someone powerful, if the GM (or source books) ramp up everyone to high point levels to compensate.

It also messes with the system, which has some references to reality and has effects when everyone has high scores in many things.

I'd rather play with 200-point PCs and typical 10-60 point opponents and NPCs, than 300 point PCs with 100 point normals, or 400 point PCs with 150 point normals. All of them show contrast between exceptional people are ordinary people, but when ordinary people are 100+ points, it starts to feel more like an "everybody knows kung fu fighting" fake-o film experience. It also throws off my experienced understanding of how to expect things to generally go in GURPS, and starts to feel like the whole world/population is a bit surreal.

Of course, high points can also represent more detail rather than more power, and players used to having high point totals may have different interpretations for many skill levels and so on. But some things have fixed effects per numeric skill level.
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Old 09-19-2016, 02:50 PM   #34
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: [MH] Point Inflation

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Actually I'm pretty sure that Vietnam SEALs using that template and armed with their historical loadout would just utterly slaughter a bunch of berserkers with knives, clubs and swords, pistols at best most of the time. Point totals are not everything. But that's beside the point., There is a reason to make, say zombies, that capable. Against regular people they actually win despite their substantial handicaps. In the movies if a zombie, even a slow zombie, actually gets within arms reach of anyone who isn't a badass action hero then what happens next isn't pretty.
Cultists do not have any disadvantages that forces them to fight in a berserker like fashion. They might not be as well armed as typical SEALS, but heavy weapons might not suit the Cultist's mission objectives very well anyway. It is true that the Cultists are unskilled at Tactics and less versatile overall though.

It has admittedly been awhile since I watched a zombie movie, but that is not how I remember them. I remember people occasionally managing to get away after getting that close. Sometimes even after getting close to multiple zombies. Also those people tend to be very far from action heroes. More like regular people who often don't have any combat skills and very possibly even below 10 in attributes. People who are skilled at combat tend to be able to reliably defeat single zombies (unless subjected to a surprise attack).

Also you don't have to go anywhere close to as far as MH does in order for your zombies to reliably defeat normal people in a fight. Just going all out in a fight like zombies does can get you pretty far against normal people who aren't used to fighting and you could easily take out 50 points from ST and skills while still leaving them superior in those regards to the vast majority of people.
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Old 09-19-2016, 03:02 PM   #35
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: [MH] Point Inflation

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Cultists do not have any disadvantages that forces them to fight in a berserker like fashion.
Yes they do. That being said I'd probably suggest lowering their HT a mite. High health enemies can be annoying when they aren't bosses.
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Old 09-19-2016, 03:03 PM   #36
Ulzgoroth
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Default Re: [MH] Point Inflation

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Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Cultists do not have any disadvantages that forces them to fight in a berserker like fashion. They might not be as well armed as typical SEALS, but heavy weapons might not suit the Cultist's mission objectives very well anyway. It is true that the Cultists are unskilled at Tactics and less versatile overall though.
Berserk (12) is one of the (optional) traits for the Cultist Thug. That said, it's optional, and the alternate Bad Temper doesn't force incompetence in combat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
It has admittedly been awhile since I watched a zombie movie, but that is not how I remember them. I remember people occasionally managing to get away after getting that close. Sometimes even after getting close to multiple zombies. Also those people tend to be very far from action heroes. More like regular people who often don't have any combat skills and very possibly even below 10 in attributes. People who are skilled at combat tend to be able to reliably defeat single zombies (unless subjected to a surprise attack).
Zombies vary, of course, but it's not uncommon for them to be so far down the threat scale on an individual basis that a moderately fit individual of no martial capability can expect to fend off or evade one if not surprised. (Of course, a decent fraction of those have ultra-lethal infectious properties.)
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Old 09-19-2016, 03:09 PM   #37
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: [MH] Point Inflation

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Berserk (12) is one of the (optional) traits for the Cultist Thug. That said, it's optional, and the alternate Bad Temper doesn't force incompetence in combat.
A Fanatic with Bad Temper does not strike me as likely to avoid frontal assaults.
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Old 09-19-2016, 03:16 PM   #38
Flyndaran
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Default Re: [MH] Point Inflation

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
A Fanatic with Bad Temper does not strike me as likely to avoid frontal assaults.
Frontal assaults often lose. Temperamental fanatics don't want to lose. While emotion often gets the better of them, that's not automatic. If it were, then they would barely qualify as sapient. Emotional does not mean suicidal or dumb.
Also Fanaticism is not incompatible with Cowardice which would preclude such forms of attacks.
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Old 09-19-2016, 03:19 PM   #39
Randyman
 
Join Date: May 2009
Default Re: [MH] Point Inflation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Cultists do not have any disadvantages that forces them to fight in a berserker like fashion. They might not be as well armed as typical SEALS, but heavy weapons might not suit the Cultist's mission objectives very well anyway. It is true that the Cultists are unskilled at Tactics and less versatile overall though.

It has admittedly been awhile since I watched a zombie movie, but that is not how I remember them. I remember people occasionally managing to get away after getting that close. Sometimes even after getting close to multiple zombies. Also those people tend to be very far from action heroes. More like regular people who often don't have any combat skills and very possibly even below 10 in attributes. People who are skilled at combat tend to be able to reliably defeat single zombies (unless subjected to a surprise attack).

Also you don't have to go anywhere close to as far as MH does in order for your zombies to reliably defeat normal people in a fight. Just going all out in a fight like zombies does can get you pretty far against normal people who aren't used to fighting and you could easily take out 50 points from ST and skills while still leaving them superior in those regards to the vast majority of people.
Then don't play MH as written. Seriously. That specific Worked Genre Example is clearly not what you prefer, and I hope you don't feel pressured to play it. It can still serve as inspiration for the kind of monster hunting game you would prefer.
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Old 09-19-2016, 03:23 PM   #40
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: [MH] Point Inflation

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Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
A Fanatic with Bad Temper does not strike me as likely to avoid frontal assaults.
Frontal assault and acting like a berserker aren't the same.
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