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Old 04-19-2020, 09:08 AM   #1
Aman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Default Fixing Disengage

I perceive a contradiction of two rule mechanics: IN and Disengage.

IN has the intent that the side choosing to move first has an advantage of positioning, maneuvering, and restricting the opponent [by Engaging usually]. Disengage, however, cancels out losing the IN since you can easily create a team of high-DX fighters who cannot be forced into Combat unless they feel like it- they are supermen! Even with a measly DX of 10 not even the power of a giant matters; he has to stop when coming adjacent and then you Disengage during Combat before the Giant can take a swing at you.

By failing to win IN, you should open yourself up to some sort of consequence, but you don't.

In fact, according to this rule, if I have a dozen warriors all of whom have ONE POINT of DX higher than a dozen opponents [say DX11 to DX10], then one side may NEVER combat the other side, without their consent. And that is just plain broken.

My fix at this point is simple - you have to pass an adjDX roll. So, if you've invested in high DX, fine. But it can still be lowered if you take some damage or are being attacked on the Side or Rear, which is a great tactic for slower combatants against faster ones.

If anyone has any alternatives or if I'm missing some unintended consequence, do chime out!
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Old 04-19-2020, 10:33 AM   #2
hcobb
 
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Fixing Disengage

How to overcome disengage...
  1. Use initiative to force the other side to move first then move to their side or rear for a DX bonus.
  2. Use "Waiting for an Opening" (ITL 127) for a DX bonus.
  3. Throw your dagger at them over and over again.
  4. Use a spear or two-handed polearm to jab them.
  5. Move into their hex during movement for HTH.
  6. Use a javelin charge to act before they do
  7. Throw your ax/mace at them over and over again.
  8. Whatever you do, don't take a fnording useless sword!
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Old 04-19-2020, 08:23 PM   #3
Aman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Default Re: Fixing Disengage

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
How to overcome disengage...
  1. Use initiative to force the other side to move first then move to their side or rear for a DX bonus.
  2. Use "Waiting for an Opening" (ITL 127) for a DX bonus.
  3. Throw your dagger at them over and over again.
  4. Use a spear or two-handed polearm to jab them.
  5. Move into their hex during movement for HTH.
  6. Use a javelin charge to act before they do
  7. Throw your ax/mace at them over and over again.
  8. Whatever you do, don't take a fnording useless sword!
Thanks hcobb. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I only get to throw my dagger / made / javelin / etc once, unless I go and retrieve it. Obviously, shooting them with missiles is a potential TACTICAL solution. Indeed, the threat of a longbow or crossbow would probably force most fighters into action.

As for HTH, you can't force someone into HTH unless you've a higher MA, hit them from the rear, etc. That's another problem I'll hit later. I think you should always be able to try it. As it has a roll, doesn't mean you will succeed, anyway.
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Old 04-19-2020, 08:26 PM   #4
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Fixing Disengage

If your opponent is always giving ground you'll have plenty of chances to pick your dagger up off the ground.
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Old 04-19-2020, 10:47 PM   #5
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Fixing Disengage

Initiative is a major advantage in combat.

Quote:
By failing to win IN, you should open yourself up to some sort of consequence, but you don't.
That's not true:

Using your turn to Disengage is just a way to try to avoid combat, or possibly maneuver for a better position. It's not a winning strategy (unless your goal is to taunt a single slower opponent who lacks pole weapons and ranged attacks) and it doesn't negate the advantages of winning initiative.

In addition to the things Hcobb mentioned that overcome initiative, others include:

8. Move your figures such that a target has nowhere to Disengage to, other than places where your figures can still attack them.
9. Hit them first with equal or higher adjDX.
10. Shoot them.
11. Knock them down during Movement with a Push from a horse or other larger figure.
12. Get them with magic.
13. Be willing to move multiple figures up to their full MA to get them locked into a position where they can't get away via Disengage. They can only Disengage if the move 1/2 MA or less, so if there is room to get around them, you can generally cut them off and catch them from multiple directions.


Hopefully you can see from all these points that your conclusion that an all-DX-11 force can always avoid attacks from an all-DX-10 force, is not correct.


I don't find Disengage to be a particular problem. For people who continue to be offended by it, there is also the idea the previous publisher had, to allow the adjacent foes of people who disengage from them, to use an unused action to attack them at a penalty equal to the difference in their adjDX.
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Old 04-19-2020, 11:17 PM   #6
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Default Re: Fixing Disengage

Disengage and apply occult zap is bound to run out of mana after killing a mere dozen foes or so.
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Last edited by hcobb; 04-19-2020 at 11:26 PM.
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Old 04-20-2020, 12:57 AM   #7
JimmyPlenty
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Fixing Disengage

Love the fact that you and your son are playing by the way...


Visualize the scenario you describe. Do it over four turns and you quickly get the idea that the 11DX force is retreating.

Any battle is fought over something to defend. Gold, a castle, fair maiden, etc...a retreat like that is going to give it up when defending, or never take it when attacking.

Last edited by JimmyPlenty; 04-20-2020 at 01:03 AM.
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Old 04-20-2020, 06:17 AM   #8
Aman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Default Re: Fixing Disengage

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty View Post
Love the fact that you and your son are playing by the way...


Visualize the scenario you describe. Do it over four turns and you quickly get the idea that the 11DX force is retreating.

Any battle is fought over something to defend. Gold, a castle, fair maiden, etc...a retreat like that is going to give it up when defending, or never take it when attacking.
To make it sweeter, we're betting on our arena fighters. We just used melee Hand Weapons in the first several games [no missiles, no HtH]. He can pick a bet up to $1. The money will be worth real things, if not at their cash value. :)

So this came up due to not having the alternative weapons or magic described. To bring reality into it, the solution for the opposition is to present a variety of attack threats - but they should be doing that in any case [even with teams of 2 we are doing it]. Still, switching between missile and hand weapons takes a turn, as does retrieving them. Also, the fig that is disengaging is usually doing so backwards against an advancing foe - it is a rule that we are faster forwards and if you are watching your opponent's body properly, it is quite easy to see the shift in balance, etc.

So while I am very appreciative of your input - which is valuable either way - I still think Disengage is fundamentally broken and see it being abused by gamers and their PCs.

I think rolling for it solves the problem - if you fail to get away and get attacked a few times, you'll learn it is not an easy out, much as you may want to get away from a giant. A solution to the giant or dragon is to give them the equivilent of a polearm weapon all the time, of course!
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Old 04-20-2020, 04:35 PM   #9
JimmyPlenty
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Fixing Disengage

I'm not totally against the idea of the DX roll for disengage don't get me wrong (you have to roll to disengage HTH after all...at 4/DX!).

I'm thinking it was already considered. Seems logical enough. Maybe the reason it wasn't taken up is because then the opposite would happen. No one would disengage that didn't have a 13+ DX because it isn't worth it. (might as well attack)
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Old 04-20-2020, 07:10 PM   #10
Aman
 
Join Date: May 2008
Default Re: Fixing Disengage

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyPlenty View Post
I'm not totally against the idea of the DX roll for disengage don't get me wrong (you have to roll to disengage HTH after all...at 4/DX!).

I'm thinking it was already considered. Seems logical enough. Maybe the reason it wasn't taken up is because then the opposite would happen. No one would disengage that didn't have a 13+ DX because it isn't worth it. (might as well attack)
well, there's still situations that have to be carefully considered. I attempted it in a fight this evening and it didn't work, needing a '12'. Still think it was a good choice given the circumstances. But I didn't get to attack, didn't get to disengage, etc. I like the choice.
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