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Old 05-28-2020, 12:22 PM   #11
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
ITL page 103 has all the engaged options. Each as this format: movement phase action, comma, combat phase action. Sometimes if it needs more details it departs from this structure but still always lists the movement phase details before the combat phase details.

Option (q) has this before the comma: "Bend over" (not moving),

It mentions "Bend over" before even stating "not moving". While it is not explicit, I take this to mean that the bend over is a movement phase action just by the structure of the sentence.

Also from a fairness perspective, why should a lower DX person have a safer time retrieving a dropped weapon? That is, if using the method where the fighter keeps his options without having to first bend over during movement:
- If a high DX person retrieves, then he is bending over for the rest of his turn for all lower DX foes to strike him.
- If a low DX person retrieves, then he is bending over after all his quicker foes have already went, thus can safely pick up his weapon.
^ Yes. The fairness point makes a lot of sense to me, for engaged figures. It also has the same fairness effect with regard to the Drop Weapon spell or victims of disarming: by requiring an Engaged figure to Pick Up their drop weapon starting in the movement phase, it means that regardless of their DX, they'll need to do that _next_ turn, and probably be bending over in front of foes for that turn.

For Disengaged figures, since the Change Weapons option requires moving 2 or less, and figures can snag items off the ground on the run during movement for 3 MA, I would still allow that option to be changed to and acted on in adjDX order.
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:01 PM   #12
JimmyPlenty
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

Treat it like running and picking up a weapon in the middle of movement for 3 MA. Just say it happens during movement and they cannot take an action.
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Old 05-29-2020, 12:17 AM   #13
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

Between options (a)+scooping, (b)+scooping, (e) and (q) I'd say the rules are quite intentionally geared to get dropped weapons back into the hands of figures who need them as quickly and easily as possible.

More than that, in each case the rules go out of the way to add the verb "and ready." The retrieved weapon is always ready for use on the very next action phase after the moment of retrieval. (The retrieval itself finishes the figure's action for the current turn when using options (e) and (q).) Of course the figure could be killed, knocked down, or disarmed with Drop Weapon before that next chance to act, but otherwise it's back in business and comes out swinging. This fast pace is a reason to love Melee.
Axyl wrote: "It mentions "Bend over" before even stating "not moving". While it is not explicit, I take this to mean that the bend over is a movement phase action just by the structure of the sentence."
Every option has its movement phase component and its action phase component, but it isn't always easy or even possible to say where the act of "moving" ends and the act of "acting" begins. Some cases are crystal clear, but others are blurred.

Here we have a case where someone takes steps, bends down, grasps a weapon, and then readies that weapon for use. The latter of those things must presuppose they also straightened up to some degree, which is a fifth thing. The footsteps (if any) are taken in the Movement phase, the readying and presumed straightening is accomplished by the end of the Action phase, but there's really no way to say for sure where the bending and grasping fall in relation to the "border" between the two phases.

The most danger comes with option (q), because the bending over must be occurring in the front hex or hexes of one or more attacking enemies. Hence the +4 DX bonuses to all the attackers, although that bonus can't begin until the target figure actually takes their action.

So really anyone taking option (q) wants to go last. Here the higher DX could get them killed. If you are getting attacked either way, better to be attacked without the +4 DX going to your enemy. Take your lumps, then pick up your weapon. Act first to pick up your weapon, which you still can't use now until next turn, and take even more certain lumps from possibly even more enemies. Option (q) doesn't do the figure using it any favors.

Going way back to the OP: option (q) is a desperate thing you never want to resort to unless it's all that's left. The better tactic is to always carry a secondary weapon, and use READY NEW WEAPON if you can, or CHANGE WEAPON if you have to, to get that secondary weapon out. Worry about getting the primary one back after you win the fight. Using CHANGE WEAPON (for engaged figures) you could still get hit, but never at +4 DX unless you actually let the enemy get behind you. You never want to make it any easier on your opponents than you have to.
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:46 AM   #14
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
The retrieved weapon is always ready for use on the very next action phase after the moment of retrieval.
Actually the retrieved weapon is ready the next turn. Very last sentence on ITL pg 104 says "A weapon picked up this way is ready next turn."


Good points about carrying a secondary weapon. But if you don't have one or you really must retrieve the dropped weapon, and you are in a gambling mood you can try this: instead of using option (q), disengage. Then hope you win initiative. ;-) If so, you can safely pick up the weapon at the cost of 3 MA, without giving up +4 DX and no shield aspect to your foe, since you can pick up weapons from adjacent hexes.
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Old 05-29-2020, 10:40 AM   #15
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
Actually the retrieved weapon is ready the next turn. Very last sentence on ITL pg 104 says "A weapon picked up this way is ready next turn."


Good points about carrying a secondary weapon. But if you don't have one or you really must retrieve the dropped weapon, and you are in a gambling mood you can try this: instead of using option (q), disengage. Then hope you win initiative. ;-) If so, you can safely pick up the weapon at the cost of 3 MA, without giving up +4 DX and no shield aspect to your foe, since you can pick up weapons from adjacent hexes.
Only if you can move into the weapon's hex without being engaged.

(The picking up from the ground on the move is not intended to allow snatching from adjacent hexes. It's not explicitly stated, but Steve recently said he never imagined anyone would think that it'd be possible to run and scoop up a weapon from an adjacent hex.)
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Old 05-29-2020, 10:54 AM   #16
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

Melee page 7: "or pick up and ready a dropped weapon and/or shield from the hex where movement ends or from an adjacent hex."

Same text as ITL 102.
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Old 05-29-2020, 12:05 PM   #17
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Melee page 7: "or pick up and ready a dropped weapon and/or shield from the hex where movement ends or from an adjacent hex."

Same text as ITL 102.
That's about options dedicated to picking up weapons while not moving very far. Different from the Scoop Up A Weapon thing that can be done while moving without taking a special action.
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Old 05-30-2020, 01:09 AM   #18
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
Actually the retrieved weapon is ready the next turn. Very last sentence on ITL pg 104 says "A weapon picked up this way is ready next turn."
Ack! I'd better start wearing my reading glasses more often!

Well that's a bummer. Tragic really. Now there's almost no difference between scooping it up "on the run", and using (c) READY NEW WEAPON. I liked it better when I was delusionally thinking they were more distinct from each other. Using (c) you can move 2 hexes, and pick up a weapon from a 3rd hex. The other way you spend 3 MA picking it up from a hex you pass through. In both cases you are now done doing anything else the same turn. In both cases you must be disengaged.

Still, there's two interesting differences with run and scoop, but has anyone ever seen these in play? (1) you might want to use run and scoop if two opponents want the same item, and you use it to beat the other person there. If you're moving first, then you get to the item before the other guy. (2) if you're fleeing the combat and want to take something with you, then you can scoop for it on the run and keep going until you've used your full MA. I don't think there's anything else you can do in the game on the same turn you are moving full MA except jump and scoop.

Dang, for spending 3 MA or making the 3/DX roll, it just doesn't feel like enough bang for the buck if the weapon still isn't ready. I'm very tempted to start a new house rule, crossing out that "ready next turn" bit :)
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Old 05-30-2020, 04:54 AM   #19
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

Move two hexes, carefully pick up weapon, and dodge.
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Old 05-31-2020, 01:19 PM   #20
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
Well that's a bummer. Tragic really. Now there's almost no difference between scooping it up "on the run", and using (c) READY NEW WEAPON. I liked it better when I was delusionally thinking they were more distinct from each other. Using (c) you can move 2 hexes, and pick up a weapon from a 3rd hex. The other way you spend 3 MA picking it up from a hex you pass through. In both cases you are now done doing anything else the same turn. In both cases you must be disengaged.

Still, there's two interesting differences with run and scoop, but has anyone ever seen these in play? (1) you might want to use run and scoop if two opponents want the same item, and you use it to beat the other person there. If you're moving first, then you get to the item before the other guy. (2) if you're fleeing the combat and want to take something with you, then you can scoop for it on the run and keep going until you've used your full MA. I don't think there's anything else you can do in the game on the same turn you are moving full MA except jump and scoop.

Dang, for spending 3 MA or making the 3/DX roll, it just doesn't feel like enough bang for the buck if the weapon still isn't ready. I'm very tempted to start a new house rule, crossing out that "ready next turn" bit :)
The weapon will be ready next turn, and it's often less effort to do that than to reduce yourself to 2 hexes of movement and use your arction.

There are other differences.

* As Henry mentioned, scooping doesn't take an action, which you might be able to do something with.

* Another major difference is that READY NEW WEAPON lets you both put away a weapon and ready another slung weapon.

* And the difference between needing to actually enter a hex where a weapon is, rather than being able to grab it from adjacent.

And yes, I have seen those two cases you mentioned, not very often until just recently. (Most recently when playtesting the new Infinite Arenas product, which has a number of scenarios which involve trying to get objects and deny them to your opponents during combat.)

One other tactic I have seen is when there is a higher-MA figure and thrown weapons figure in, so there are throwable weapons on the field, and the higher-MA figure runs over and scoops up a weapon off the ground and then uses the rest of their movement to get far enough away to avoid attacks, then next turn throws the weapon.
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