[spaceships] Proximity Warhead damage

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That's substantially a jet-fighters-in-space sort of model, isn't it? (The other possibility that comes to mind would be subs-in-space, but I know Elite isn't that.)

You'll probably have to first assemble a setting that doesn't work anything like real space before it makes any sense.

Well, it would relies heavily on small computers being either unavailable (dumb missiles) or extremely expensive (rare missiles). It actually has little to do with aerial vs. space manoeuvring, as long as the thrust and endurance values of both ships and missiles are such that sudden turns matter.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That's substantially a jet-fighters-in-space sort of model, isn't it? (The other possibility that comes to mind would be subs-in-space, but I know Elite isn't that.)

You'll probably have to first assemble a setting that doesn't work anything like real space before it makes any sense.

Or at least a retro-tech one. Heinlein's Citizen of the Galaxy has a subs in space feel where programmig the missile correctly was a huge life or death deal.

It was also written early in the Univac Age and doesn't make much sense with more modern technology.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Well, it would relies heavily on small computers being either unavailable (dumb missiles) or extremely expensive (rare missiles). It actually has little to do with aerial vs. space manoeuvring, as long as the thrust and endurance values of both ships and missiles are such that sudden turns matter.

It also requires spacships to have huge problems with stealth such that small sensors can track them over long distances. Yet it also requires that anti-missile fire is largely impractical.

The first might be realistic to whatever extent having adventutes in space has anything to do with realism. The second is not realistic at all.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Or at least a retro-tech one. Heinlein's Citizen of the Galaxy has a subs in space feel where programmig the missile correctly was a huge life or death deal.

Not exactly the same thing, but:

The timing in Spaceships is such that aside from the nominal skill roll by the gunner, missiles are fire and forget. There's no 'Stay On Target While The Missile Locks On' - neither the need to stay focused on that*, nor a significant tradeoff in terms of delay. Compare to regular GURPS combat, where to fire a Homing missile, you must first lock it on, unlike regular guns (which you can opt to shoot immediately).

Another neat retro thing would be more use of Guided missiles.

* == Despite the fact that in general, single-pilot ships have difficulties from multitasking even in cinematic cockpits.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It also requires spacships to have huge problems with stealth such that small sensors can track them over long distances. Yet it also requires that anti-missile fire is largely impractical.

The first might be realistic to whatever extent having adventutes in space has anything to do with realism. The second is not realistic at all.

That's mostly a Close Combat Ranges setup. Detection range need not be that short, but effective engagement range has to be such that there is no sniping in space. In such a setup, missiles can be the long-range weapon of choice (though not in all variants).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Well, it would relies heavily on small computers being either unavailable (dumb missiles) or extremely expensive (rare missiles). It actually has little to do with aerial vs. space manoeuvring, as long as the thrust and endurance values of both ships and missiles are such that sudden turns matter.

Computer issues might not be that necessary...modern air-to-air combat is missile-centric but it's not a Macross Missile Massacre, so getting from there to Elite might be reachable.

However...
-Atmospheric flight makes a long-range, fast missile also a big expensive missile. Burn-and-drift spaceflight means range as such is no issue to space-borne missiles.
-Aerodynamic maneuvering allows for surprising quick course changes. It's much harder to pull such things off in space. (Consider how hard it would be for a standard-rules missile to catch a Boost Drive spaceship.)

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Not exactly the same thing, but:

The timing in Spaceships is such that aside from the nominal skill roll by the gunner, missiles are fire and forget. There's no 'Stay On Target While The Missile Locks On' - neither the need to stay focused on that*, nor a significant tradeoff in terms of delay. Compare to regular GURPS combat, where to fire a Homing missile, you must first lock it on, unlike regular guns (which you can opt to shoot immediately).

Another neat retro thing would be more use of Guided missiles.

* == Despite the fact that in general, single-pilot ships have difficulties from multitasking even in cinematic cockpits.

In Spaceships, a turn is at least 20 seconds. A moment to designate the missile's target before launch could be included in that without being worth mentioning, though missiles taking direction after launch (as they do in Spaceships) may be more realistic. Though one might think that directing a flock of missiles might take some time after launch in that case.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

That's mostly a Close Combat Ranges setup. Detection range need not be that short, but effective engagement range has to be such that there is no sniping in space. In such a setup, missiles can be the long-range weapon of choice (though not in all variants).

This mostly dates from wrestling with the technology in G:Traveller. You can't launch Fire and Forget missiles at spaceships from the limits of the ship's detection range. The bigger the ship, the bigger its' sensors and the farther they reach.

So the ship needs to relay sensor data to the missile after the missile lauinches. Yet the missile doen't need the ship's _guidance_ just its' sensor data. The actual intercept problem is trivially easy.

G:Traveller deliberately ignores this so launching huge missile strikes is harder.

A true Fire and Forget missile needs a range and sensor profile like an IR missile v. a jet fighter's exhaust.

The Nuclear Pulse Drives from Transhuman Space might provide this but intercepting missiles is so easy that TS relies on huge and heavily armored "missiles" (actually AKVs).

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Computer issues might not be that necessary...modern air-to-air combat is missile-centric but it's not a Macross Missile Massacre, so getting from there to Elite might be reachable.

However...
-Atmospheric flight makes a long-range, fast missile also a big expensive missile. Burn-and-drift spaceflight means range as such is no issue to space-borne missiles.

Burn-and-drift is useless if the target performs meaningful amounts of manoeuvring. Sure, there is no drag, but if distances are even somewhat bigger than in atmo (and remember, full 3D due to no ground), hoping that the opponent is still there is less realistic.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

-Aerodynamic maneuvering allows for surprising quick course changes. It's much harder to pull such things off in space. (Consider how hard it would be for a standard-rules missile to catch a Boost Drive spaceship.)

The worst thing is that G:SS ships turn really fast. If ships have high accelerations, but still take a long while to turn, like in Star Control, course changes still look 'furious'. Elite doesn't rely on this one, though.

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

In Spaceships, a turn is at least 20 seconds. A moment to designate the missile's target before launch could be included in that without being worth mentioning, though missiles taking direction after launch (as they do in Spaceships) may be more realistic. Though one might think that directing a flock of missiles might take some time after launch in that case.

Yes, a turn is 20+ seconds, but a missile locks on at those huge space ranges in the same 1 second as it does in human-scale combat. Compare to locking on target in the Trench Run at the end of A New Hope (cinematic, of course).
A variation with some level of verisimilitude (though still probably too cinematic) would be to say that locking on at greater distances takes extra time.

[jacobmuller]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

That's substantially a jet-fighters-in-space sort of model, isn't it? (The other possibility that comes to mind would be subs-in-space, but I know Elite isn't that.)

Actually, I liked Elite because it wasn't jets-in-space. I hate modern games with all that whizzing around in furballs. You'd spot a hostile as a dot on the scanners and then zap him before he got close enough to be too fast to hit. They launch a missile, you zap it before it gets too close. But maybe that was just how I played it.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

Actually, I liked Elite because it wasn't jets-in-space. I hate modern games with all that whizzing around in furballs. You'd spot a hostile as a dot on the scanners and then zap him before he got close enough to be too fast to hit. They launch a missile, you zap it before it gets too close. But maybe that was just how I played it.

There was a bit of both.