[Spaceships] [High-Tech] [Action] Cydonia Or Bust, TL8

[vicky_molokh]

Greetings, all!

This is mostly a thought experiment, based loosely on the mission of the same name from the strategic X-Com, with some changes.

Premise:

It is TL8, as in, modern time. Technology is modern, except that you are allowed to use non-divergent, non-superscience stuff found in G:Spaceships, up to TL8 (which might be considered optimistic, and can represent desperate willingness to use experimental stuff). You have funding on a national level from several states.

There is an underground enemy base on Cydonia, Mars. It is perhaps slightly more advanced technologically (TL9 caseless guns, somewhat better computers; think early TL9 or very late TL8), but is old, under-equipped (no impenetrable blast doors, no military-grade turrets etc.), extremely undermanned, and is defended by the equivalent of militia or green troops, and does not have any sources of backup. OTOH, humans get to use whatever SpecOps they choose (i.e. SEAL point levels). On the gripping hand, Martians are fully Mars-adapted - they can breathe Martian air, can have Area Knowledge etc.

You cannot use the One Way To Be Sure - nuking from orbit is not an option, and predator drones can't get in; you need to put boots on the ground and through the base, either seizing or destroying the command centre.

What funding would be required for such a mission, what loadouts would be used, what would the timeframe be, and what sorts of troop choice would there be? (I'm half-expecting a single ship fielding about the dozen best-of-the-best SpecOps, but things might turn out different.) Purely as a thought experiment - I'm not GMing anything like that.

Thanks in advance!

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

What funding would be required for such a mission, !

Tens of billions of $ if not a hundred or more. We really don't have the technology for a larger space mission than ever befgore to a location farther away than ever before just waiting on somebody's shelf.


New heavy lift booster design (or at least re-creation of an old booster) a decade or more. long-term space vehicle at least that long and large Mars lander with potential return to Earth for both vehicles....I don't know but not soon. 30 to 50 years total is not out of bounds.

Picking guns for the troopers now instead of 30 years from now seems premature.

I can not imagine the objective that would justify this and you couldn't keep it secret anyway.

All of this assumes realism. If you actually want this to happen discard realism and pick a conveninet number. This is probably good advice for alsmot any video game inspired scenario.

[Polydamas]

The military aspect makes it even more of a forlorn hope. I can't see any honourable officer signing off on a plan for a mission like that: too many things are certain to go wrong in unpredictable and lethal ways. For example, what if the soldiers arrive too sick from radiation, microgravity, dietary deficiencies or trace pollutants in the air to fight? I think at near-future tech they are stuck on Hohlman orbits, so what if the Martans respond during the year or two they have to spend on or near Mars waiting for the planets to align so they can return home?

I think Fred's timeframe is roughly right. It would be impossible to hide the plans for a manned mission to Mars, including the unmanned test runs.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

The military aspect makes it even more of a forlorn hope. I can't see any honourable officer signing off on a plan for a mission like that: too many things are certain to go wrong in unpredictable and lethal ways. For example, what if the soldiers arrive too sick from radiation, microgravity, dietary deficiencies or trace pollutants in the air to fight? I think at near-future tech they are stuck on Hohlman orbits, so what if the Martans respond during the year or two they have to spend on or near Mars waiting for the planets to align so they can return home?

I think Fred's timeframe is roughly right. It would be impossible to hide the plans for a manned mission to Mars, including the unmanned test runs.

True enough. That's why you don't hide them... at least, not completely. You run it as if it were a normal manned mission to Mars, but when it arrives the astronauts turn out to be military special forces and the ship turns out to be packing some serious guns.

Anyways, I think we could probably do it significantly faster than Fred suggests if it's an emergency situation and we're willing to cut corners or use technology like Orion drives. I'd put an upward bound of 10 years - again, if this were an emergency. Probably closer to five.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Langy

Anyways, I think we could probably do it significantly faster than Fred suggests if it's an emergency situation and we're willing to cut corners or use technology like Orion drives. I'd put an upward bound of 10 years - again, if this were an emergency. Probably closer to five.

We'd have to _invent_ Orion drives first. Orion drives exist as pen and paper calculations only.There has never been _any_ hardware development or a proof of principle device.

Now, NERVA (Fission Thermal Rocket) exists or at leas *** used to. Using one of these for for an upper stage motor might as much double your ISP for that stage. There aren't any engineers that worked on the project that aren't well past retirement age and there's no body of current expertise with working with similar devices to tap but at least there used to be some well-tested hardware.

Aftr the problem in Japan with the Fukushima plant it's not a good time to start nuclear propulsion plans. Even if you could explain that there are a couple of dozen aliens you need to go kill (which apparently you can't).

You need to lift something like 300 metric craploads of stuff into orbit. Then you need to turn thatm aterial into a never seen before or tested Earth to Mars Orbitla vehicle and a Mars Lander that needs to be at least 10x the size of the Lunar Lander and working in more than 2x the gravity too.

_Not_ 5 years. not even 10.

The politicians and their apointees in the NASA bureaucracy have indeed been doo-dooheads. That doesn't mean they've been the only thing holding us back. All of this stuff is actually very dificult.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Langy

True enough. That's why you don't hide them... at least, not completely. You run it as if it were a normal manned mission to Mars, but when it arrives the astronauts turn out to be military special forces and the ship turns out to be packing some serious guns.

Anyways, I think we could probably do it significantly faster than Fred suggests if it's an emergency situation and we're willing to cut corners or use technology like Orion drives. I'd put an upward bound of 10 years - again, if this were an emergency. Probably closer to five.

Ten years is my lower limit. This is harder than the Apollo Program (sending a dozen people to live for a few years on Mars is a wee bit more difficult than sending two to live a few days on the Moon- and no country has been able to put men on the moon since the 1970s). Similarly, if you ignore all necessary testing and trial runs, send only veterans with curiously short CVs and interesting gaps in their training schedule, and use a drive which scraps half the satellites in orbit with EMP, how do you hope to convince anyone that its just an ordinary expedition?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

All of this assumes realism. If you actually want this to happen discard realism and pick a conveninet number. This is probably good advice for alsmot any video game inspired scenario.

Note that in the game you have to reverse engineer TL 9 propulsion to do it.

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Ten years is my lower limit. This is harder than the Apollo Program (sending a dozen people to live for a few years on Mars is a wee bit more difficult than sending two to live a few days on the Moon- and no country has been able to put men on the moon since the 1970s). Similarly, if you ignore all necessary testing and trial runs, send only veterans with curiously short CVs and interesting gaps in their training schedule, and use a drive which scraps half the satellites in orbit with EMP, how do you hope to convince anyone that its just an ordinary expedition?

Are we expecting to bring the troops home? There is nothing in the OP's requirements to say this isn't a suicide mission.
If its expected to be a one way mission, that reduces the complexities some what!

[SCAR]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Note that in the game you have to reverse engineer TL 9 propulsion to do it.

You've also reverse engineering Laser and Plasma Weapons, not to mention Grav Tanks, and The Grav-Bomb Launcher thingy, and Psi Powers!

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Similarly, if you ignore all necessary testing and trial runs, send only veterans with curiously short CVs and interesting gaps in their training schedule, and use a drive which scraps half the satellites in orbit with EMP, how do you hope to convince anyone that its just an ordinary expedition?

I know it's a feature of the style of fiction, but I've always wondered how you build something like this with global funding without somebody leaking the hidden details. During the build, there's going to be a lot of people who have to be either let in or brushed off, from the multiple US Presidents who have to propose the budgeting to the CAD guy who is told to add what looks like a weapons locker in the lander. Surely one of them is going to get drunk, or decide the people deserve to know, or think hostile aliens make for good reelection soundbites.