Unarmed Parry with "Off Hand"

[Greg 1]

Under "Number of Parries" Basic 376, the text says "You parry with your "off" hand...or with a weapon held in it, at -4 to skill. Since Parry is calculated off half skill, this gives -2 to Parry"

In GURPS Martial Arts p. 124, in the "Harsh Realism for Unarmed Fighters" it says "The Basic Set treats unarmed combat favorably: there's no "off" hand..."

This just means that there is no "off hand" for attack purposes, unless you are using the the Harsh Realism rule, right? The -2 to an unarmed parry with the off hand is just part of the standard rules, yes?

[vicky_molokh]

Harsh Realism talks about the fact that Karate normally doesn't suffer off-hand penalties.

[Ultraviolet]

As a former (although only for a few years) practiconer of ashihara karate, I think we practiced parries evenly with the left and right hand. The hand used to parry with was the one on the side the attack was coming from, usually the left hand if fighting someone with a right-handed stance. And I don't recall it was any easier using the right hand to parry with.
If anything, we practiced parrying with the left hand more, because of fight training. While in basic technique training we practiced them the same.

[Greg 1]

My post may not have been clear.

I'm not asking about realism, I'm asking about the GURPS rules as written. Is the default rule a -2 to parry with an unarmed off-hand or not?

My understanding based on Basic 376 is that, without using any optional rules, my player is going to be at -2 to an unarmed parry with the off hand. In that section, the text says "You parry with your "off" hand...or with a weapon held in it, at -4 to skill. Since Parry is calculated off half skill, this gives -2 to Parry". I'm not seeing any other text in Basic that flies in the face of my interpretation. In particular, I'm not seeing anything under "Karate" that says any different.

My player is reading things differently and points to Martial Arts p. 124, which states that "The Basic Set treats unarmed combat favorably: there's no "off" hand...". I'm assuming that this just means that in BS, there is no "off hand" for the purposes of attack, since that's all I'm seeing reference to under Karate.

[chris1982]

IDHMBWM but for brawling, judo, karate, boxing there is no offhand. You can use whatever hand you like to parry at no penalty.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by chris1982

IDHMBWM but for brawling, judo, karate, boxing there is no offhand. You can use whatever hand you like to parry at no penalty.

Cite please? I know you DHYBWY but maybe someone can cite.

The only reference I'm finding in Basic is on p. 376 where the text says "You parry with your "off" hand...or with a weapon held in it, at -4 to skill. Since Parry is calculated off half skill, this gives -2 to Parry"

[The Wrathchild]

It's in the descriptions for Judo, Brawling and Karate. They all mention that the skill allows two parries, and then what the score of that parry is. It´s "reverse" - it doesn't say that you don´t have penalties, it says that you have that score for two defence rolls, one with each hand. No penalties mentioned.

B182, Brawling: "When you defend with bare hands, Brawling allows you to parry two different attacks per turn, one with each hand. Your Parry score is (skill/2) + 3, rounded down."

B203, Judo: "Judo allows you to parry two different attacks per turn, one with each hand. Your Parry score is (skill/2) + 3, rounded down."

B203, Karate: "Karate allows you to parry two different attacks per turn, one with each hand. Your Parry score is (skill/2) + 3, rounded down"

Karate specifically mentions no penalty for attack rolls with the off hand.

Wrestling and Sumo Wrestling specifically allows only one, twohanded Parry pr. turn.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by The Wrathchild

It's in the descriptions for Judo, Brawling and Karate.

So what sense do you make of the quote on Basic p.376 where it lists a -2 for parrying with the off hand "or the weapon held in it"? Are you reading that as a mistake? Under what circumstances would you see that applying to an off hand that isn't holding a weapon?

I was equating the lack of mention for an off-handed parry penalty under Judo, Brawling and Karate with the lack of mention of an off-handed parry penalty under Melee Weapon (Broadsword).

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

So what sense do you make of the quote on Basic p.376 where it lists a -2 for parrying with the off hand "or the weapon held in it"? Are you reading that as a mistake? Under what circumstances would you see that applying to an off hand that isn't holding a weapon?

I think this is a case of "specific rules trump generic". GURPS, in general, doesn't waste a lot of text giving a rule and all its exceptions every time the rule is mentioned. Instead, it gives the general rule, and lists exceptions only where they apply.
So the general rule is that off-hand parries take a -2 penalty, but certain specific skills ignore it, like Judo, Brawling, and Karate. Also Main-Gauche, which, notably, specifically mentions that it allows you to ignore the off-hand penalty to defense, which implies the penalty's existence.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I think this is a case of "specific rules trump generic". GURPS, in general, doesn't waste a lot of text giving a rule and all its exceptions every time the rule is mentioned. Instead, it gives the general rule, and lists exceptions only where they apply..

But what then is the occassion when you get a -2 for parrying with an off hand with no weapon in it? If the general rule is -2 for parrying with an off hand with no weapon in it (B.376), but there are exceptions for boxing, brawling, judo and karate, when when does the general rule ever apply?