Questions : Off-Hand Penalty & Unarmed Techniques

[Popov]

1) I'd like to know when do off-hand penalties apply.
In which cases does a roll takes the -4 ?
Parry withe unarmed combat skills ? Melee weapon skills ?
Attacks with unarmed combat skills ? (others threads seems to say that no OH penalty is taken, and that it is adressed in MA, but can't find it)
Non-Combat skills ? Which ?
Grapple ? fast-draw (especially if you have the OHWT perk) ?
Riding/Driving/Piloting with one hand ?
Grab ?
Other special cases ?

2) I found very strange that MA, while doing a great job in permitting lots of moves that are pretty likely in reality but were impossible before, don't make anyone capable of trying an knee strike or other base moves.
Many techniques only default to Karate/Brawling or Judo/Wrestling, and so don't enable Joe Unskilled to try them. Anyone can grapple, pin, takedown, punch, kick, bite, slam, etc. with his DX. But no normal guy can just make a knee strike after coming in close with a foe, or try to eye-poke someone, or make a head butt. All this move are really impossible by the RAW if you don't have at least 1 Point in Brawling or so. Do Mr Geek see his arm blocked when he tries to strike a friend with his elbow ?

The penalty to try these should be high, but an elbow strike is far from unfeasable, I think.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Popov

1) I'd like to know when do off-hand penalties apply.
In which cases does a roll takes the -4 ?
Parry withe unarmed combat skills ? Melee weapon skills ?

Unless I am mistaken, off hand penalties do not apply to any parries or blocks.

Attacks with unarmed combat skills ? (others threads seems to say that no OH penalty is taken, and that it is adressed in MA, but can't find it)

Hmmm. Good question.

Non-Combat skills ? Which ?

To my knowledge, this is not defined in the rules and would be in the scope of the GM to make situational rulings.

[Kromm]

Per p. B14, anything done with the off hand is at -4 to DX unless normally done with the off hand. "Normally done with the off hand" is defined per skill, and includes using Cloak or Shield, defending with Main-Gauche, and defending with any unarmed skill that lets you parry with either hand at no penalty. Otherwise, treat your DX as four points lower with that hand.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Popov

1) I'd like to know when do off-hand penalties apply.
In which cases does a roll takes the -4 ?
Melee weapon skills ?

With the exception of using Main-Gauche skill to parry and blocking with Shields, you need OHWT or Ambidexterity to ignore the off-hand penalty.

Parry withe unarmed combat skills ?
Attacks with unarmed combat skills ? (others threads seems to say that no OH penalty is taken, and that it is adressed in MA, but can't find it)
Grapple ?
Grab ?

These are all more or less the same question. Unarmed skills are suppose to ignore handedness, but I've never found anything in Basic which says so. I can only point to the box Harsh Realism for Unarmed Fighters in MA to say that unarmed figthers don't normally have off-hand penalties.

fast-draw (especially if you have the OHWT perk) ?

So long as the OHWT is for a Fast-Draw skill, you ignore off-hand penalties with that Fast-Draw skill.

Non-Combat skills ? Which ?
Riding/Driving/Piloting with one hand ?
Other special cases ?

By the rules for off-handedness on p. B14, if you're not using you're main hand and the task isn't one specifically intend for use in the off-hand then you take off-hand penalties. Thus this will apply primarily to DX based skills. In general, just apply common sense.

As an example, if you had a right handed American and a right handed Englishman and made them drive each other's car. Both would be driving a car from the 'wrong' side in each of their perspectives. As such, both should get off-hand penalties since the gear stick and the hand brake are on other side to normal. This should be obvious for the American, but the Englishman is use to using them with his left-hand (a task specifically for the off-hand in his case) so using his right hand should be treated as his off hand.

Of course, that example is probably better fitted under the familiarity rules than the handedness rules, but hopefully it illustrates the point.

Edit: Just correcting page references.

[Popov]

Ok so :
Parry with Unarmed Combat skills ? No penalty
Parry with Melee Weapon skills ? Penalty
Attacks with unarmed combat skills ? (others threads seems to say that no OH penalty is taken, and that it is adressed in MA, but can't find it) Penalty except for Karate
Non-Combat skills ? Which ? At discretion
Grapple ? Penalty
fast-draw (especially if you have the OHWT perk) ? Penalty (haven't read OHWT in MA with enough attention)
Riding/Driving/Piloting with one hand ? Penalty
Grab ? Penalty

Sounds good ?

- And for my second question ?

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Popov

2) I found very strange that MA, while doing a great job in permitting lots of moves that are pretty likely in reality but were impossible before, don't make anyone capable of trying an knee strike or other base moves.
Many techniques only default to Karate/Brawling or Judo/Wrestling, and so don't enable Joe Unskilled to try them. Anyone can grapple, pin, takedown, punch, kick, bite, slam, etc. with his DX. But no normal guy can just make a knee strike after coming in close with a foe, or try to eye-poke someone, or make a head butt. All this move are really impossible by the RAW if you don't have at least 1 Point in Brawling or so. Do Mr Geek see his arm blocked when he tries to strike a friend with his elbow ?

The penalty to try these should be high, but an elbow strike is far from unfeasable, I think.

Specifically, an elbow strike is an attack with your elbow against a foe who is behind you. An elbow strike to the front is a punch.

I'm happy with restricting htis things to people with some kind of training. Getting into a few fights as a kid is enough to give you a point in brawling. You arn't very good at it, but you have an increased repertoire of moves available. Considering the number of people who bemoan that a point in brawling is pointless, I think this is fair.

[Kromm]

Basically, if you're unskilled, any strike made with an arm is just a punch at DX and any strike made with a leg is just a kick at DX-2. None of the special rules for elbow and knee strikes apply -- these untrained attacks aren't good enough to reap those benefits.

[Popov]

Ok, that makes sense.
So any strike, anyhow realized, executed unarmed is either a punch or a kick, because exotic moves aren't effective. It's usually confusing to have so precise names for techniques, and I forgot that all techniques are just rule-effects with the most common application as name.

PS : So you confirm that Karate is the only one to offset OH penalty to punch ? And have you the OH penalty when you grapple with Judo/Wrestling/Sumo and your off-hand ?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Per p. B14, anything done with the off hand is at -4 to DX unless normally done with the off hand. "Normally done with the off hand" is defined per skill, and includes using Cloak or Shield, defending with Main-Gauche, and defending with any unarmed skill that lets you parry with either hand at no penalty. Otherwise, treat your DX as four points lower with that hand.

So when I calculate Block for a sword and shield fighter I should then modify that by -4?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

So when I calculate Block for a sword and shield fighter I should then modify that by -4?

Why would you do that? As I said, "Anything done with the off hand is at -4 to DX unless normally done with the off hand. 'Normally done with the off hand' is defined per skill, and includes using Cloak or Shield." Blocking with a shield is normal use, so the DX penalty never applies.