Questions : Off-Hand Penalty & Unarmed Techniques

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Popov

Ok, but that's your interpretation of the rules (which only precise this for Karate skill).
If there wasn't a mention of the lacking penalty with Karate, I'd agree it's up to the GM (The Boxing fighting style could just add OHWT to offset the penalty, or all unarmed skill could have no OH penalty). But it's clear that there is a difference between the unarmed skills, because of this mention. So I think that either we get an errata, or there is a penalty to grapple/punch/grab with your off-hand without Karate.

Am I wrong ?

You are wrong, but don't feel bad about it. *grin*

If you'll notice in the Harsh Realism box on MA p.124, the hitting someone with a -4 penalty and -2 ST for someone with Boxing skill is an optional rule, which means in the normal rules you don't apply that penalty.
Also keep in mind that it's an optional rule that's meant to apply mainly to mooks, since the PCs in those types of campaigns are supposed to get the OHWT style perk which cancels that out if they're fighting types.

Basically, Kromm goes with a less words is better approach when writing GURPS rules.

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

There's also several fast-draw skills in regular use for that type of thing:
Fast-Draw Knife, Main-Gauche, Adaga, Shortsword, Wakizashi, Baton, etc.

If the weapon is normally used with the off-hand, as in the example of knives like Main-Gauche and Jitte Sais, it has no penalty for use in the off-hand defensively, which I choose to interpret to include no penalty for fast-draw for defense, though they are still at -4 for offense.

As far as I'm concerned this also applies to all other weapons which are also used in a similar manner defensively in the off-hand, in the examples I listed, the Adaga, Shortsword, Wakizashi, and Baton, are simply large knife sized objects, over a foot of blade but under 2 feet of blade, which are used in the off-hand in certain styles in a similar manner to the any other large knife like the Main-Gauche; though different GMs may choose to draw the line at a specific blade/stick length, or require a Style Perk to allow that type of usage.
Personally, I have kitchen knives over a foot long and I've seen Main-Gauches and Jitte Sais with longer blades than the typical 18" Wakizashis and other short swords, so if I had to require my players to get OHWT for use of those short swords and batons defensively, I'd simply have them use the Main-Gauche skill for all of those.
YMMV.

Now, as far as using those weapons offensively, you do need OHWT (Knife or Sword).

As for whether or not to require multiple OHWT Perks for the same weapon to fast-draw and then use, I interpret it as only requiring one Perk and ruled that once you have OHWT (Knife or Sword), then you automatically can use your fast-draw skill for those weapons offensively without penalty, since to me the OHWT includes all normal uses of the weapon and fast-draw is part of normal weapon usage.

Truthfully though, I don't know if my interpretation of that is RAW or a house rule, but I try not to apply any type of harsh unrealistic penalties if I can help it, and since I've never had any problems learning to fast-draw something with my left hand over my right hand, I interpret that the OHWT at the weapon skill level includes fast-draw.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Truthfully though, I don't know if my interpretation of that is RAW or a house rule, but I try not to apply any type of harsh unrealistic penalties if I can help it, and since I've never had any problems learning to fast-draw something with my left hand over my right hand, I interpret that the OHWT at the weapon skill level includes fast-draw.

The text description of the Off-Hand Weapon Training Perk says "You must specialize by skill; any one-handed Melee Weapon, ranged weapon, or Fast-Draw skill qualifies."

I usually just rule that OHWT for the weapon allows off-handed Fast-Draw for that weapon also, though... otherwise, the Perks tend to add up fast enough to make Ambidexterity a better buy.

[Dinadon]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

If you'll notice in the Harsh Realism box on MA p.124, the hitting someone with a -4 penalty and -2 ST for someone with Boxing skill is an optional rule, which means in the normal rules you don't apply that penalty.
Also keep in mind that it's an optional rule that's meant to apply mainly to mooks, since the PCs in those types of campaigns are supposed to get the OHWT style perk which cancels that out if they're fighting types.

Using an optional rule in one book to infer an actual rule in another book shouldn't be how you work out the rules, especially one in the core books. Whilst that box seems to indicate all unarmed skills receive the benefit of no off-hand penalty, I have yet to find anywhere in Basic that actually says that. The only place I have found anything of the sort is in the description of the Karate skill, which would imply that only Karate gets the benefits of no off-hand penalty, and the rest have to worry about the -4 to hit/-2 to parry (since the parry rules don't actually say unarmed parries ignore the off hand penalty). Even the Off-Hand Weapon Training technique in Basic gives no indication as to why it is only availible for melee weapon skills.

Whilst I love MA, and have no qualms about ignoring off-hand penalties for unarmed combatants, I do dislike the idea of having to explain a rule to players which is apparently in Basic but isn't.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Why would you do that? As I said, "Anything done with the off hand is at -4 to DX unless normally done with the off hand. 'Normally done with the off hand' is defined per skill, and includes using Cloak or Shield." Blocking with a shield is normal use, so the DX penalty never applies.

Ah! I get it now -- thanks!

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Dinadon

...in the description of the Karate skill...only Karate gets the benefits of no off-hand penalty, and the rest have to worry about the -4 to hit... Even the Off-Hand Weapon Training technique in Basic gives no indication as to why it is only availible for melee weapon skills.

Agreed, the RAW imply that a boxer suffers a -4 to punch with the off hand, and the Off-Hand Weapon Training technique [B232] does not list unarmed combat skills as a legal specialization. Furthermore, GURPS Martial Arts introduces the Off-Hand Weapon Training perk [MA50]--which seems to do the exact same thing as the technique at a fraction of the cost--and also does not list list unarmed combat skills as a legal specialization.

I have a Mage that has the Dehydration spell [M188], Boxing [B182], and Shortsword [B209]. Right now I'm thinking I need to take the OHWT perk for my boxing skill so I can tag somebody with a dehydrating punch at full boxing skill with my left (off) hand while still wielding my shortsword in my right. Does this seem reasonable to everyone?

On a side note, I assume that the OHWT technique has been replaced by the OHST perk. Is this correct?