Grand-guards

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by gjc8

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But, as Low Tech explains, not all armors can cover the Abdomen. It's a bit unclear, but it certainly seems like Plate is not a legal choice for the Abdomen.

You can't put rigid armor on the abdomen, so segmented plate is legal (which makes sense; as it is a historical fauld construction) but rigid plate is not.

So, while it's true that grand-guards are not (according to Low Tech) limited to the Chest/Torso, it is impossible to protect the Abdomen with a grand-guard.

That seems like common sense really. Imagine if you put one over a fauld, you wouldn't be able to move at the waist at all!

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by gjc8

I'm well aware that I was to some extent repeating what Fred said, but you responded to Fred with

It's true that grand-guards aren't limited to Torso only, as far as I can tell. But my read is that they can only be mounted above plate. So they can only go on a location that can be covered by plate. Outside of the Torso, that includes all the limbs as well as the Head (but you should probably use the rules for great helms instead).

Indeed, it appears that the historical term grand guard was applied to pieces of tournament armor designed to protect the upper part of the left arm, as well as the chest.

But, as Low Tech explains, not all armors can cover the Abdomen. It's a bit unclear, but it certainly seems like Plate is not a legal choice for the Abdomen.

So, while it's true that grand-guards are not (according to Low Tech) limited to the Chest/Torso, it is impossible to protect the Abdomen with a grand-guard.

Of course, you can still get DR 21 by layering DR 6 (5 +1 hardened steel) Heavy Mail underneath DR 15 (14 heavy plate +1 hardened steel) Brigandine/Segmented Plate.

It's clear that grand-guards can only be added to plate and yes since plate is prohibited from being used on the abdomen this obviously means that they can't be used to protect the abdomen. This doesn't change anything, if you want really high DR, your armour basically isn't going to be uniform in DR even before grand-guards. Fred Brackin thought that grand-guards were limited to just the torso and thus all other areas would be protected normally and so they would have a limited effect. Instead you can use them basically everywhere. The fact that the abdomen continues to have worse DR than the chest hardly invalidates grand-guards.

[gjc8]

Originally Posted by Sindri

The fact that the abdomen continues to have worse DR than the chest hardly invalidates grand-guards.

As armor for practical combat? The penalty to target the Abdomen is all of -1. The additional Chest protection provided by a grand-guard is quite easy to bypass provided your opponent's hit location choice isn't restricted by rules of sportsmanship. The additional limb armor is nice, I guess, if you're specifically worried about that.

And I'm not sure what exactly the need for a grand-guard specifically is.

DR 14 Plate stacked with DR 5 Plate over the Chest, Arms, Legs, Hands, and Feet is 167 lbs, combined with DR 5 Heavy Mail and DR 14 Brigandine on the Abdomen at 21 pounds (no Hardened Steel included). So that's 188 lbs.

Instead, make it Heavy Mail everywhere, with DR 14 Plate and Brigandine, as appropriate. The Abdomen is the same, the rest becomes 172 lbs, for a total of 193. Plate over a mail haubergon is at least gesturing in the general direction of realistic, and are you going to quibble of 5 pounds in a suit of armor that, once you add neck armor and helmet, is going to be well over 200 pounds? And you get some protection in the armor gaps, which seems like it might be a plus.

Speaking of armor gaps, that seems to be a problem with assuming a tactical environment that favors 200+ lb, DR 20+ armor. Even supposing Weapon Master is available, it's going to take a lot of ST to beat this stuff with TL4 weaponry. Even 3d+6 is only going to penetrate rarely. But let's go with that; that's ST 17 and Weapon Master with a swing+4 weapon.

Instead, let's sell back 5 points of Striking ST, for 25 points. Then let's spend 6 points on Target Attack: Thrust/Eye Slits +5 with Spear or Bow or Rapier or whatever. And let's spend 20 points increasing that weapon skill by 5.
For one more point, we've still got a respectable striking strength of 12, along with the ability to reliably ignore that 200 lb, hideously expensive armor everyone is carrying around (not to mention all the other fun effects of hitting the Eye/Brain). And we've got 5 points of weapon skill for parries and feints and, when we don't need that skill to attack the eyes, deceptive attacks and rapid strikes.

Likewise with magic. It's a benefit, I suppose, to force mages to use Lightning or Deathtouch or Dehydration instead of Stone Missile, but is it worth eating -1 DX all the time for armor layering, not to mention all the weight?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Sindri

. Fred Brackin thought that grand-guards were limited to just the torso .

I would have been clearer if I said Torso and Head but armor layering on the head location uses items with differrent names. The LT section on helmets is quite good in its' expalantions.

You could also layer plate over the limbs but you're going to run into the blanket prohibition in the Heavy Plate box on p.109 of LT. Anything over DR14 on the Head and Torso or DR10 anywhere else becomes too hard to articulate. This is why I discounted extra limb armor.

Bolting on extra layers of plate over plate will not get you past these limits. If anything two layers of DR7 Plate would be more combersome than 1 layer of DR14.