Need help with placing a Worldline.

[SuedodeuS]

The Grinning Death (and indeed that entire chapter of the comic) is based on Edgar Allen Poe's The Masque of the Red Death, which is the reason for the high lethality and communicability. Were I using a Grinning Death analog, I'd have it primarily make the subject delirious, along with causing some respiratory issues and overall physical weakness. If I had any of the cellular degradation (leading to that black fluid), it would probably generally be in smaller quantities and/or only come into play in the later stages of the disease (when the subject is nearing death).

As for the possibility of flare-ups, keep in mind what I said about the disease going into remission for many survivors. In this state, it might be possible to spread to others. If a character spends a significant amount of time around someone (or several people) who is infected, he runs the risk of contracting the disease, but it starts in remission (and there's a decent chance his immune system will fight it off outright). This will allow there to be portions of the population that are carriers even 400 years later without any serious outbreaks (or a few serious outbreaks, if you prefer).

Here are some possible mechanics. The disease involves a roll against HT, modified as described under Contagion (B443). Once you've caught it, however, it's difficult to get rid of - you need to roll against HT-5 to force it into remission. It has an incubation time of a few* hours, has 1 cycle every few hours, and does 1 toxic damage per cycle**. A critical success on the resistance roll means you successfully purge it from your system, normal success simply means you put it into remission. Once it is in remission, the GM can call for HT rolls every so often during other illnesses or if you are suffering significant FP loss from lack of sleep, food, or water. Failing one of these means the disease resurfaces. Unless the character is well taken care of during the sickness, they are in a condition for a relapse upon the disease going into remission (meaning cases where a character has a brief time when they seem to have recovered, then suffer a relapse, can occur; note this means that when you make your HT-5 roll, you have to follow it up with a roll against HT).

If you only come into contact with individuals in whom the disease is in remission, you need to roll against HT+5 - again modified as per Contagion. If you catch it, you'll generally exhibit cold-like symptoms for a day or so (following a 1 day incubation), after which you may make an HT roll to fight the infection off. Failure means it establishes itself, and you run the risk of a relapse under poor conditions.
Starting play with the disease in remission is a Quirk.

*I'm leaning toward 5 hours, both for the incubation and cycle time. For added complexity (if you like the variability indicated for the Grinning Death), Margin of Failure actually determines incubation (for the initial roll vs HT) and cycle (for the following HT-5 rolls) time. For MoF 5+, incubation/cycle is 1 hour. MoF 4 is 2 hours, MoF 3 is 3 hours, MoF 2 is 4 hours, and MoF 1 is 5 hours.

**Those suffering from the active form of the disease are at least somewhat delirious. They are generally affected by Euphoria (see B428), which manifests as uncontrollable giggling and grinning (arguably, it's a combination of the effects of Coughing/Sneezing and Euphoria). Severe insomnia (roll against HT; you manage to get MoS hours of sleep this sleep cycle) is also very common. Once you have taken more than half your HP in toxic damage from this disease, you begin to hallucinate (see B429). At this point, your laughter is ragged. Once you have taken your HP in damage, you suffer Paralysis (also on B429) but continue laughing and begin suffering from cellular degradation, with tissue turning into a red blood-like substance and leaking out of your pores. If you take 2xHP in damage, you suffer permanent brain damage (resulting in reduced IQ and/or severe mental Disadvantages). Those who die do so with a crazed grin plastered on their face, and this grin remains as they rise as zombies a few hours later.

[Hans Rancke-Madsen]

Originally Posted by Rowan

[Scandinavia becoming a separate power] is a possibility at least. Certainly not a sure thing. Defending the islands I could see, but even if they remain independent and don't turn into a satellite state of the empire, would they still be able to class themselves as a major civilization and or world power? I'm up for suggestions. :)

Both Denmark-Norway and Sweden were quite powerful up through the Middle Ages. If the Kalmar Union had held, it could have been even more powerful. Having the Hansa mauled by the plague could only help.

It could work out either way. If they can manage to pull together, some sort of union between Denmark, Norway, and Sweden would definitely be a player -- no empire need apply, we've got our own, thank you very much. If they spend most of their time fighting each other, they could be ripe for takeovers or just minor power status.


Hans

[Xenarthral]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Another thing that springs to mind is that if Britain survived, other island civilizations, notably Japan, should probably also do so. Japan is further from the mainland than Britain is, and had less regular contact at the time as well. Of course, you can always handwave that a shipload of zombies got across in Japan where it didn't in Britain, but personally, I think it's more interesting to have a couple of powers, one east and one west.

What about (whatever states were around at the time in) Indonesia?

Really, this sounds like an ideal opportunity to have Malay (islands, just like Britain and Japan) and West African (refugees can escape along the caravan
routes, zombies-that-need-to-eat can't follow and the POD is around the
time when the Mali Empire got going) among the Major Civilizations

Originally Posted by Rowan

You make an interesting point. They are an island, but Japan's militirization to say nothing of it's industrilization doesn't really get hopping until, I think, the Meiji Restoration,

Could you elaborate on what you mean by militarization and why Japan wasn't
militarised (or as militarised as 13th century England) until the mid-19th century?
They had one of their big important civil wars (Taira vs. Minamoto) some
forty years before the POD.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Rowan

Highly Interesting, Captain. =) The Cabal could 'definitely' be a prime candidate for the mess this world is end. *nod nod* That would be a useful. The world is 'Low Mana' so the possibility is there. Something for the Icops to investigate. :)

An idea. The plague doesn't kill 100% of the time. The zombies very often kill the survivors but the survivors, while clearly no longer 'human, are just as clearly not Zombies either. These people can man the shore defenses of Britain, engage in melee without fear of reinfection while English Bowmen, protected by these... Liches, can decimate the tacticless zombie hordes at range. This allows some exploration of Europe for recovery of things like books etc.

Now going with the Cabal idea, there is in England a herb, somewhat rare, but cultivatable. A tincture of it will confer +3 Resistance to the disease, while one poured hot into a brass container and left to age a couple of months is more potent and confers +8. The Cabal will eventually allow it to be distilled in brass tubes to make one that confers immunity, but not yet.

It will take time but Great Britain will be able to field a force of Immune Men and Liches who can retake Europe.

Now here's a different question: Are the zombies killable but otherwise Immortal? There won't be enough surviving humans to provide new generations of zombies and the originals will die out from war and mischance.

This puts a serious 'shelf life' onto your Zombie apocalypse.

[Michele]

This is all rather interesting. Now, I don't know if I'm playing the devil's advocate here, but...

If Europe is not entirely depopulated and the British manage to gain hegemony over local powers that have been greviously weakened, but not entirely wiped out, and if this takes 200 years... then it will take another couple centuries before the English power begins to be felt across the whole of Asia... and this means they will find an established Chinese "New Kingdom". Already "today" (1429) there must be city states there.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Xenarthral

Could you elaborate on what you mean by militarization and why Japan wasn't militarised (or as militarised as 13th century England) until the mid-19th century? They had one of their big important civil wars (Taira vs. Minamoto) some forty years before the POD.

Perhaps I've misspoken? What I was referring to was Japan's modernization and it's rise to world power status. This seems to have taken place in the Meiji period. (1868 -1912)

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

Now here's a different question: Are the zombies killable but otherwise Immortal? There won't be enough surviving humans to provide new generations of zombies and the originals will die out from war and mischance.

The zombies don't stick around. They do rot, just not as fast as a normal body. They will eventually fall to pieces and die. It was never my intention to make the world a zombie apocalypse kind of place. I just wanted a way to depopulate most of Europe and turn the British Empire into an even stronger great power, but I wanted to do it in a unique way. On first blush, your way is a bit more fantastic then I was aiming for.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Rowan

I think I'd rather take Venice and Sicily out of the 'game' [...] 'Unless' of course their survivals might lead to a more interesting world dynamic?

Well, it depends on what you're going for. If you want the challenges to the British Empire to be primarily internal - rebellions, conquering new, unorganized territory, etc, then not having Mediterranean rivals is better. Having some rival nations means there'll be external challenges - competition for the same regions, spies, and so forth.
Personally, I think having a serious local rival or two, even if they're not individually as large as the British Empire, is a bit more interesting, but that's just my opinion. :-)

Originally Posted by Rowan

If I were to go with a 60% popular drop, would that create a situation with .. Britain doesn't have the bodies to fill all the territory. Thoughts on this?

Well, I'm no population biologist, so I can't give you hard numbers. Europe did recover pretty quickly from the Black Death, as far as I know, but it definitely took a while for the population to fully recover, and the effects on society were long term (the Black Death is at least partially responsible for the growth of urban culture and the middle class - it created a major labor shortage, which meant that peasants who ran away to the city had much better chances of finding a job there, and local lords were forced to improve conditions on the farms a great deal to induce peasants to stay on the land, lowering tax burdens, allowing more liberty, etc.).

My gut instinct is that, given your scenario (zombie plauge, but one that burns itself out reasonably quickly rather than leaving hordes of ravenous undead to trouble the conquerors), that the British Empire will be larger in direct relation to how badly the Continent is hit. I think the outcome I described (controlling France, west and north Germany, and western Scandinavia, satellite states in eastern/southern Germany and the Baltic coast) is probably reasonable if you assume a 25-50% population die-off in Europe. Increase the area controlled for a bigger die-off, decrease it for less, basically.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Xenarthral

What about (whatever states were around at the time in) Indonesia?

Indonesia is probably as plausible as Britain, yeah - it's got similar distances of open water. Other good candidates would include Taiwan, Sri Lanka, and Madagascar. Heading back to Europe, Iceland would definitely remain zombie-free.

Originally Posted by Xenarthral

Really, this sounds like an ideal opportunity to have [...] West African (refugees can escape along the caravan
routes, zombies-that-need-to-eat can't follow

Unfortunately, we seem to be talking about actual supernatural undead zombies, not the "zombies as living people with horrible disease" version. So Africa is probably in trouble. In fact, the desert will probably provide less of a barrier than other terrain: zombies will be incapacitated by rot, but the desert will tend to naturally mummify them, which might actually make them tougher!

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Well, it depends on what you're going for. If you want the challenges to the British Empire to be primarily internal - rebellions, conquering new, unorganized territory, etc, then not having Mediterranean rivals is better. Having some rival nations means there'll be external challenges - competition for the same regions, spies, and so forth.
Personally, I think having a serious local rival or two, even if they're not individually as large as the British Empire, is a bit more interesting, but that's just my opinion. :-)

Well, let's say I did shake another western power into the mix. Which would be a good choice?

Originally Posted by Kelly

Well, I'm no population biologist, so I can't give you hard numbers. Europe did recover pretty quickly from the Black Death, as far as I know, but it definitely took a while for the population to fully recover, and the effects on society were long term (the Black Death is at least partially responsible for the growth of urban culture and the middle class - it created a major labor shortage, which meant that peasants who ran away to the city had much better chances of finding a job there, and local lords were forced to improve conditions on the farms a great deal to induce peasants to stay on the land, lowering tax burdens, allowing more liberty, etc.).

My gut instinct is that, given your scenario (zombie plauge, but one that burns itself out reasonably quickly rather than leaving hordes of ravenous undead to trouble the conquerors), that the British Empire will be larger in direct relation to how badly the Continent is hit. I think the outcome I described (controlling France, west and north Germany, and western Scandinavia, satellite states in eastern/southern Germany and the Baltic coast) is probably reasonable if you assume a 25-50% population die-off in Europe. Increase the area controlled for a bigger die-off, decrease it for less, basically.

*ponders that* I see, I see.

[Rowan]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Indonesia is probably as plausible as Britain, yeah - it's got similar distances of open water. Other good candidates would include Taiwan, Sri Lanka, and Madagascar. Heading back to Europe, Iceland would definitely remain zombie-free.

Indonesia sounds interesting. Would it be reasonable to have them say make a grab for India? Could they manage such a thing? Or would they only be able to grab part of it? Any other territories they might look toward?

In regards to Japan, I can see them moving across to gobble Korea, and China. Maybe not all of it? I dunno, china ... seems pretty darn big, to say nothing of the Russian Empire.

Originally Posted by Kelly

Unfortunately, we seem to be talking about actual supernatural undead zombies, not the "zombies as living people with horrible disease" version. So Africa is probably in trouble. In fact, the desert will probably provide less of a barrier than other terrain: zombies will be incapacitated by rot, but the desert will tend to naturally mummify them, which might actually make them tougher!

I'll admit .. I'm waffling a bit regarding the specifics of the plague victims. Originally I hadn't given it much thought, as I didn't consider it to be terrible important to how the world would look after the smoke cleared. But it's becoming readily apparent that how I handle the disease and the specifics of it are pretty darn important. I'll admit to liking SuedodeuS's Grinning Death disease idea. It seems to be highly communicable. Any thoughts on that? It kinda sticks together the idea of living plague victim and then potentially mostly dead or totally dead zombie type problem. Maybe just have something mostly dead walking around without the benefit on a living cerebral cortex, and just the basic functions of moving around and such? We could cut food and water out of the equation still or maybe reduce the need for it significantly so that while they will 'eventually' starve or die of thirst and possibly even rot ... their victims can't always outlast them as an assurance?

Thoughts on this?