Infinite worlds: The Earth of Shadowrun

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

and one Tech that was "lost" was medical tech, epically surgical, archeology has unearth Roman surgical tools that were only reinvented in the 20th Century.

Medical tech seems to be the one place where there was honestly a TL drop, yes. Although even there, that was a Europe-centric thing. The Arabic or Oriental worlds certainly didn't forget about the medical tech they knew.

Originally Posted by roguebfl

But that was not the point about the Dark age.. yes material sciences did advance, but while theoretical was not so much lost but was suppressed

Can you give an example of a theory that was supressed in the Dark Ages? I can't think of a single example that would qualify. Even medical theory wouldn't, because a) it wasn't "supressed" - there doesn't seem to have been any active attempt to force people to stop using techniques that worked, and b) it wasn't medical theory that faltered, it was the practice. Medieval doctors were using theories very similar to their Roman counterparts. They were just using less sophisticated tools and methods to fix what they perceived as the problems.

[Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2]

In any case if I were a time-traveler I wouldn't go near a doctor before the 20th century. Well, maybe the late 19th century in the UK but definitely not in America.

The Shadowrun tech would be substantially different in any case just because of design and protocols. Computer software from the identical calendar-year from the same company with the same designers might not be at all compatible. And there's lots of room for variation in chip design. A separate skill might be necessary to get the systems to work together - decker technology might be completely useless with Homeline equipment, for example. It would be trying to get natural gas to run through a plumbing system; the systems might be fundamentally similar and do similar things, but the differences are crucial.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

In any case if I were a time-traveler I wouldn't go near a doctor before the 20th century.

This is true. "I can saw my own leg off just fine, thanks."

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

The Shadowrun tech would be substantially different in any case just because of design and protocols. Computer software from the identical calendar-year from the same company with the same designers might not be at all compatible.

Homeline's only TL 8, though, remember, so Homeline techs will already have the TL penalty to contend with. I don't think it's necessary to throw in divergent tech. In fact, it doesn't really make a difference, since divergent tech only adds a penalty when it diverged before your current TL. A TL 8 guy has the same penalty to understand TL 9 and TL 8+1.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Can you give an example of a theory that was supressed in the Dark Ages? I can't think of a single example that would qualify. Even medical theory wouldn't, because a) it wasn't "supressed" - there doesn't seem to have been any active attempt to force people to stop using techniques that worked, and b) it wasn't medical theory that faltered, it was the practice. Medieval doctors were using theories very similar to their Roman counterparts. They were just using less sophisticated tools and methods to fix what they perceived as the problems.

Orbital mechanics research was supports, due to "uncomfortable" philosophy question for the church. Which was a key stepping stone Newton used for his foundations on motion, which in turn was the release for "machines" that have driven the tech climb seen the age of reason.

Now image that what happen if Galello and DeVinci and Michalego had the age of reason freedom to to prosue their ideas, that then having to watch ever step they took so that they were not missunderstood.

[walkir]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

In the Infinite Worlds setting, Homeline is Real Earth,

IW 20 says otherwise, leaving it open which world we live on.

I'm pretty sure that SURGE effects were explained as the higher magic levels causing previously unexpressed metagenes to surface.

At the very least, that's a widely accepted ingame hypothesis.

@cabal: I think Cabal-IEs are lame, but would the Cabal mess with great dragons (except perhaps "great baby dragons" like Masaru.) After all, they go well with ketchup, too. ;)

Though there are clearly ways around that. Shadowrunners get by, obviously. :-)

Yeah:
- by staying away from AA+-Zones ;)
- by getting fake SIDs. But I doubt the team would end up in the barrens or in another Z-Zone and/or have the money to pay a good forger... Crime syndicates and perhaps swagmen may not have that problem, though.

Originally Posted by redwulfe

From what some people have said is that no world in the infinate Worlds setting are in the future of homelines setting.

You can easily say "divergence point: humans evolved/founded civilization 500 years early". This wouldn't even count as a measurement error. Or, as I did for a future setting: "divergence point: The sun and Earth are 'born' 100 million years early".

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

The Shadowrun tech would be substantially different in any case just because of design and protocols. Computer software from the identical calendar-year from the same company with the same designers might not be at all compatible.

It's not only optical chips, SR computers of '27 are in the middle of a revolution. It's the Time ASIST ("Sensies") is developed and the very first Cyberdecks hit the market.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Orbital mechanics research was supports, due to "uncomfortable" philosophy question for the church.

First, the big debate over the helio-centric model vs. the geo-centric model of the solar system didn't occur in a period that any history text I've ever heard of considered "the Dark Ages". It was firmly in the Renaissance, the way most people figure it.
Second, the level of suppression tends to get overblown. Most of the early astronomers didn't get censured by the church. Galileo was the one who got most of the flack, and, frankly, that was much more politically motivated that religious. Basically, Galileo was meddling in Italian Church politics, and the Pope used the stick of a heresy trial to get him to shut up. His theories about planetary motion were probably as much excuse as cause. Galileo was, in fact, something of a tactless jerk. :-)
Third point is that, even if we accept that the Church's decision that the heliocentric model was heretical did slow down its development, that's still not lost knowledge. I don't know of any accurate theories that the pre-Dark Ages cultures held that were then lost or forgotten because of supression.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by walkir

IW 20 says otherwise, leaving it open which world we live on.

I think the point of that box is that Homeline diverged with the invention of parachronics. Before that, it's our world.

Originally Posted by walkir

but would the Cabal mess with great dragons (except perhaps "great baby dragons" like Masaru.) After all, they go well with ketchup, too. ;)

On the one hand, the Cabal are smart. They know the danger of trying to deal with dragons. On the other hand, they're arrogant. If any organization can produce someone who would seriously say "Sure, they're super-intelligent beings with vast resources, enormous experience, and phenomenal cosmic power. But I'm smart enough to manage the dangers and get away with it!", the Cabal can. And some small fraction of Cabalists saying that may even be right. :-)

Originally Posted by walkir

- by getting fake SIDs. But I doubt the team would end up in the barrens or in another Z-Zone and/or have the money to pay a good forger... Crime syndicates and perhaps swagmen may not have that problem, though.

Don't forget that the Patrol does extensive probe-recon before inserting teams. I would expect that the first teams through will pretty much always be in places like the Barrens or the wilderness where they can go unnoticed.

Originally Posted by walkir

You can easily say "divergence point: humans evolved/founded civilization 500 years early". This wouldn't even count as a measurement error.

From a geological perspective, sure. But I tend to think that human history is a bit too contingent for that to work. When a volcano erupts, for example, is very important, depending on which civilization is next to it at the time. For example, take Mount Saint Helens. That's pretty much going to blow on schedule, regardless of what year human historians say it is. If you assume that Shadowrun's year AD 2070 is "really" Homeline's AD 2027, then all of a sudden, you don't have the volcano erupting in 1980, fifty years ago. Instead, you have it erupting in 2023. That's going to have huge knock-on effects on Shadowrun's history. I think if another Pacific Northwest volcano goes off that soon after the Great Ghost Dance, it's probably going to trigger war as people assume the NAN is at it again.
Or consider the implications of the San Francisco earthquake of 1906 actually happening in 1949.

Basically, this is why I feel saying "history just started earlier" is a cheat for getting more advanced timelines. I mean, I'm not the game police, I won't come to your group and make you stop if you do it, but it would strain my suspension of disbelief if you did it in game.

[walkir]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Don't forget that the Patrol does extensive probe-recon before inserting teams. I would expect that the first teams through will pretty much always be in places like the Barrens or the wilderness where they can go unnoticed.

In the wilderness, perhaps, yes. But you can't insert people into an urban area, even in the 2020s.
You would have to built projectors somewhere in there - and I (as the patrol) would equip every bit of parachronic tech going into a TL9, zone Z-World with several autonomous self-destruct mechanisms. That's if the team would even be allowed to take one with them. And I definitely wouldn't install a base there.

If you go by air, you will be on the RADAR. Imagine a helicopter arriving out of thin air, flying a bit and vanishing the same way. Barrens or not - this will alarm everyone with air control devices in the area. Let alone syndicate members in the astral...

From a geological perspective, sure.

I was mainly thinking about radiocarbon dating.

Basically, this is why I feel saying "history just started earlier" is a cheat for getting more advanced timelines. I mean, I'm not the game police, I won't come to your group and make you stop if you do it, but it would strain my suspension of disbelief if you did it in game.

Of course it's a cheat. You have to cheat if you want something that's officially forbidden. ;)

And I would be happy if I had a GURPS group.

@redwulfe: I stayed in the 2020s because I like the idea of "historical Shadowrun" and a possibility to fight against the Virus. Plus, once we're in 2070+, we have to care about resonance/dissonance realms...

[chandley]

Originally Posted by walkir

If you go by air, you will be on the RADAR. Imagine a helicopter arriving out of thin air, flying a bit and vanishing the same way. Barrens or not - this will alarm everyone with air control devices in the area. Let alone syndicate members in the astral...

Actually, I still like the "it was a group of Shadowrunners" explanation here. A helicopter appearing out of thin air and then disappearing again (or landing in the Barrens somewhere and then disappearing) sounds a lot like a few runs my crew went on.

As a corp sec guy watching a radar, my first move would be to bounce my controlling computer node to kick out the hacker that obviously just flubbed up hacking my monitor and/or sensors. My second action, if I cared enough about something that didnt affect me, would be to send out a watcher spirit or an elemental or some other astral scout to look for the magically hidden helicopter. Probably not a mage, given that anyone who can invisible a helicopter is packing a lot of juice...

Shadowrun radar operators know there are stealthed helicopters (just crack open the Aztechnology military catalog). They probably get 2 or 3 "no flight plan, no transponder, no response" contacts a week, and those are just the ones that are counting on being ignored, never mind the several others that manage to evade radar one way or the other. SOP is probably "log it and send it to Corp Intelligence, see if they can link it to anything."

I think getting in and getting around would be easy for a proper Patrol squad who took it careful and slow. Being able to sneak around is part of the point of the universe, after all :)

Chandley

[walkir]

Originally Posted by chandley

Actually, I still like the "it was a group of Shadowrunners" explanation here.

It would be a nice scene to have an patrolman come into a bar and be greeted by "his" streetname... ;)

As a corp sec guy watching a radar, my first move would be to bounce my controlling computer node to kick out the hacker that obviously just flubbed up hacking my monitor and/or sensors.

2070 (or even 2050)+? Sure. 2027? Not so sure. The very first Decks hit the market in (IIRC late) '26 after all.

And that'ssaying you are not primarily affected by aerial traffic control.

Probably not a mage, given that anyone who can invisible a helicopter is packing a lot of juice...

Yes. just imagine being projecting astrally as your astral body crashes a suddenly materializing helicopter... Nice way to make enemies.

Shadowrun radar operators know there are stealthed helicopters (just crack open the Aztechnology military catalog). They probably get 2 or 3 "no flight plan, no transponder, no response" contacts a week, and those are just the ones that are counting on being ignored, never mind the several others that manage to evade radar one way or the other. SOP is probably "log it and send it to Corp Intelligence, see if they can link it to anything."

But I have to say that sounds reasonable. It still messes with traffic control...

I think getting in and getting around would be easy for a proper Patrol squad who took it careful and slow. Being able to sneak around is part of the point of the universe, after all :)

Depends on the timeframe. In the runner scene, you are who you know. And patrolmen know no one in the first place, having some problems to get into the game. Unless one of them looks like, say, fastjack. ;)