[Low-Tech/High-Tech] Looting and Improvising arms and armour in Victorian London

[dcarson]

Probably already looted but if there are any pawnshops you should find weapons there, sloppy looters might have grabbed guns but missed boxes of ammo under the counter. Any place with a commercial kitchen should provide cleavers and large knives.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by adm

Since this is one of the rougher parts of London, would the police stations have any firearms?

I've been trying to find what police stations there are within the affected area and it seems that only a few smaller satellite stations are there. They'll have a few pocket revolvers available to policemen on night patrol upon request, but no other weapons. Edit: The number of revolvers at each station is somewhere between six and twelve, with twelve being more likely for large stations near where the Ripper scare is taking place in 1888.

Anyone who has precise information on the police stations in Whitechapel in 1888 would be a wonderful help. I'm sure this information can be found among copious Ripperology files online, but I still haven't found a one-stop resource.

Edit: I've done better now and can confidently state that the Leman Street station, HQ for Division H, is within the affected area. It is likely that the Spitalfield station on Commercial Street and the Arbour Square and Shadwell stations are within the area too, but there are no reliable news of those areas, so it is unclear what their status is. Division H consists in its entirety of almost 700 constables, detectives, sergeants and officers, and it has been reinforced with extra uniformed constables and civilians sworn in to aid in keeping the peace. The Bishopsgate station of the City of London Police is also most probably within the affected area and very close to the St. Botolph's church where the PCs have set up with other survivors, but so far, only a few policemen who were out on patrol have been seen and no one the PCs spoke with has made contact with any police station.

I cannot find any source for it, but I would expect that Leman Street Station and maybe the Bishopsgate station of the City of London Police might have a supply of extra cudgels and perhaps even other Victorian Metropolitan Police weapons, such as swords and Webley M.P. revolvers. I don't know about rifles with bayonets, however. Sir Charles Warren, the Commissioner, had been accused of militarising the police and responding excessively to riots, and it is true that newspaper accounts of the time described and pictured the government response to riots on Pall Mall and at Trafalgar Square with policemen driving the crowd at bayonet point, but I just don't know if the Met really had access to such military weapons.

The Bishopsgate station of the City of London Police is located next to the City of London Police Hospital, so it would be very useful to send an expedition up Houndsditch and two blocks up Bishopsgate Street, to establish contact. There might be anywhere from 15-60 cops there, but any able bodied man who doesn't shy away from conflict is a help.

Originally Posted by adm

Perhaps you could have some improvised tower shields/pavises that some of the stronger guys can shove with, a second rank can use spears/polearms, and a third rank can use firearms/bows/crossbows to shoot the primary threats.

The lack of training in such methods would be a serious drawback. Even military veterans or rough-and-ready characters who have sought their fortunes on the various frontiers of the Empire will have no training and little experience with shield wall tactics.

Seasoned street-fighers might be familiar with the concept, but I should think that ordered ranks and shoving with shields would be much rarer than two packs of men with bludgeons coming at one another along a street.

Originally Posted by adm

You should be able to improvise molotovs and such with common items, if nothing else you should find lamp oil.

Oil, strong spirits and other flammable items are not hard to find.

I've been wondering if explosives could be obtained. Some dynamite would be welcomed by the PCs. They've made common cause with a Fenian revolutionary since drifted into a criminal lifestyle, still in possession of five sticks of dynamite, and are eager for more.

[adm]

Depending on the business in the area you may find odds and ends to make improvised explosives, don't forget things like carbide lamps and all the street gas powered lights, with a bit of time, and care, you maybe able to make local gas pockets before the pressure drops too low.

Shield wall tactics, true; but some of these guys are probably rugby players, while not ideal, they ought to have some basic idea of what to do from the scrum.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Oil, strong spirits and other flammable items are not hard to find.

Making it a particularly useful weapon is a skill check (though not an especially difficult one) -- making something that burns is no challenge, making something that doesn't burn the thrower, stays lit when thrown, ignites the spilled material after it breaks, and sticks to the target instead of running off into the street requires at least some skill.

Originally Posted by Icelander

I've been wondering if explosives could be obtained.

It wouldn't be especially surprising to have either a construction company or a (likely illegal) fireworks factory in the area.

[RGTraynor]

A bunch of thoughts:

* A lot of folks are focusing on the armor situation, but I don't think it's nearly as grim as all of that. Near to the docks, are you? Got plenty of people handy who know how to sew, do you? Have light chain a-plenty, do you? Terrific. Then this is how you do it: you have your seamstresses get to work on sewing tubes of heavy canvas, at the bottom of strips of heavy canvas. One seamstress to a tube, that should go relatively quickly. You sew them all together into a shirt of sorts, then thread those lengths of chain through the tubes. Whomp a blacksmith's leather apron over that to protect the canvas from being ripped, and you've got something I don't hesitate to call DR 3. I'd give it an activation roll, especially against any thrusting attack, but even so.

* Blacksmiths were endemic in the Western world well into the 1920s. The notion that you'd have some in the area is sound. If I was directing a blacksmith to make as many weapons for a battle as he could within a couple hours, I'd stick to hammering out crude spearheads that could be lashed onto poles. They don't have to be remotely fancy or durable, they could easily be made out of bronze or brass, and I'd say that a serviceable point from bar stock would take about 15 minutes.

* I can't imagine why dynamite would be in the area; if you want some there, make it a fiat.

* On shield walls: eeesh. For those of you who haven't had experience in trying to get newbies to hold to any kind of formation in a low-tech battle line, you really can't. It's the product of a lot of training, as well as the ability of an officer to maintain tactical command, the trust of his men even when some of them are falling, and one element very rare to these amateur battles: a reserve. Newbies tend to clump up and to freelance, and those who are otherwise experienced brawlers aren't immune.

* On USING shields: getting newbies to keep them up, instead of dropping them to chest level or lower, is a pain in the ass -- it's very akin to novice boxers letting their guards drop and uncover their heads. I don't suppose I'd discourage people from grabbing improvised shields, but I wouldn't go to any great trouble to provide shields, and I wouldn't expect much from them. Honestly, I'd rather hand a newbie a 6-7' improvised spear than a shield and a weapon.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Icelander

What about helmets? Aside from a leather skull cap with DR 1*, which can probably be obtained, are there any other possibilities? Does a policeman's helmet give any useful DR?

Not any better than a leather skull cap; police helmets were made of cork at that time, and while it might be good for an extra point of DR vs Crushing attacks, it's not really serious armor. It's not impossible that a well-prepared hoodlum might have a steel skullcap, though.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Sheet iron has more DR than that, but you aren't making brigandine in your desired time scale.

Not proper brigandine, but the half-assed coat of plates I described above is better than leather alone, and a lot better than nothing.

Originally Posted by Anthony

It's unlikely that you can work DR 5 metal plates with hand tools, at least in the time you have available. Typical 20 gauge steel (e.g. auto body panels) is probably DR 2; I don't know what would be present at your time period, but in general anything with high DR is only going to be worked with heavy industrial machinery or large amounts of time.

At least one of the smiths should have a set of bench shears, which can be used to cut sheet metal in straight lines, which is all that's needed.

Originally Posted by Icelander

No one is making new plates of any size. The intent is to find pre-existing metal objects, preferably a sheet about the size of a human chest, and sew it into a pocket on a butcher's apron. Other suggestions are using chains, bars and whatever is usually found in an ironmonger's shop to provide DR, sewing something around it to keep it in place.
There probably ought to be DR 1 plates or platters that it might be possible to layer, but hopefully there are thicker metal plates of useful size around a foundry or ironmonger that are used for something at the late 19th century. Didn't Victorian people use iron sheets for strengthening carriages, reinforce doors or something?

Boiler plate should answer perfectly well for the purpose, and be easily available.

Originally Posted by Celjabba

A clawfoot bathtub, carefully smashed, could provide the plating ...

Things that can be 'smashed' conveniently tend to make poor armor.

Originally Posted by Celjabba

And instead of chain and nails, why not use cutlery ? Heavy spoons are easy to find by the dozen,and are properly shaped to be sewn on in an overlapping 'scale brigandine' way...

Because that will take far, far more time than they have available, and provide less protection than previous suggestions.

Originally Posted by Celjabba

An inverness coat or a coachman buff coat, with thick leather panels sewn on would offer good protection against bite and claws.

Nothing you could do to an inverness coat would make useful armour out of it, and nothing they could probably do to a buff coat in the time they have would make it better armor than it is already. (Also, afaik, neither coachmen nor anyone else in this era were prone to wearing buff coats, they being a piece of military apparel some centuries out of date at that time.)
[QUOTE=Celjabba;1850340]
You may also ask around for families with a ancestor who fought at Waterloo... There must be some cuirass lying around carefully polished.

This is french, but I imagine the equivalent existed on the other side.
http://www.musee-armee.fr/fileadmin/...se-fauveau.pdf
The likelihood of anyone in the East End having Cuirassiers in their ancestry is basically nil; those troops come from the gentry, in the main.

Originally Posted by dcarson

Probably already looted but if there are any pawnshops you should find weapons there, sloppy looters might have grabbed guns but missed boxes of ammo under the counter. Any place with a commercial kitchen should provide cleavers and large knives.

There are probably few if any guns in an East End pawnshop at this time.

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

* A lot of folks are focusing on the armor situation, but I don't think it's nearly as grim as all of that. Near to the docks, are you? Got plenty of people handy who know how to sew, do you? Have light chain a-plenty, do you? Terrific. Then this is how you do it: you have your seamstresses get to work on sewing tubes of heavy canvas, at the bottom of strips of heavy canvas. One seamstress to a tube, that should go relatively quickly. You sew them all together into a shirt of sorts, then thread those lengths of chain through the tubes. Whomp a blacksmith's leather apron over that to protect the canvas from being ripped, and you've got something I don't hesitate to call DR 3. I'd give it an activation roll, especially against any thrusting attack, but even so.

That involves a lot more work (and hence time) than they have available; just organizing something like that could easily occupy 2 hours, let alone actually doing it. Mrs. Eisenstadt and her daughters are already accustomed to working together, and have got all the non metallic materials immediately to hand. Also, the focus is on armor because one of the PCs wants some, and hasn't got any.

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

* Blacksmiths were endemic in the Western world well into the 1920s. The notion that you'd have some in the area is sound. If I was directing a blacksmith to make as many weapons for a battle as he could within a couple hours, I'd stick to hammering out crude spearheads that could be lashed onto poles. They don't have to be remotely fancy or durable, they could easily be made out of bronze or brass, and I'd say that a serviceable point from bar stock would take about 15 minutes.

I wouldn't waste the blacksmith's time on weapons of any sort; practically every tradesman's already got better means of doing someone harm than that ready to hand. If spears are wanted, you may as well save time and attatch existing knives to poles directly.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Sure, but in the end, you're looking for materials that can be shaped in a couple of hours with light industrial tools, and 'DR' and 'light industrial tools' are incompatible goals.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

At least one of the smiths should have a set of bench shears, which can be used to cut sheet metal in straight lines, which is all that's needed.

Boiler plate should answer perfectly well for the purpose, and be easily available.

What kind of DR would boiler plate that is capable of being cut by bench shears have?

Would it be DR 3?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Its not impossible that someone might have a shirt of butted mail, a steel helmet, or a thick quilted jacket hanging in their study or parlour. There were plenty of people wearing and fighting in these in 1888. Sadly the South Kensington Museum with its Indian and Oriental arms and armour is in the wrong district, and so are the townhouses of rich collectors.

Originally Posted by Celjabba

You may also ask around for families with a ancestor who fought at Waterloo... There must be some cuirass lying around carefully polished.

This is french, but I imagine the equivalent existed on the other side.
http://www.musee-armee.fr/fileadmin/...se-fauveau.pdf

Celjabba

Originally Posted by Dalillama

The likelihood of anyone in the East End having Cuirassiers in their ancestry is basically nil; those troops come from the gentry, in the main.

As noted, the East End, in particular this poor and benighted area of the East End, is an unlikely place to find people who own heirloom armour or collect historical artifacts of any kind. That is not to say that there are not some middle class homes along the Whitechapel High Street and Aldgate High Street (as opposed along the side alleys and streets), but they are very much a minority of the population and, in any case, probably not the sort of middle class families who'd have inherited much of anything from an ancestor from the gentry.

If they ever came into possession of museum armour, foreign suits of armour taken as trophies or any valuable memorabilia of Waterloo, they'll have likely sold it to someone wealthier than they are, in order to afford more immediately useful things. The more prosperous citizens of Whitechapel are tradesmen and hard workers who feed large families and invest spare capital in their businesses, not the idle rich and decadent who have the luxury to collect valuable objects as a hobby.

Originally Posted by Celjabba

An inverness coat or a coachman buff coat, with thick leather panels sewn on would offer good protection against bite and claws. Adding metal bits and I am not sure the protection afforded would be worth the DX penalty.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Nothing you could do to an inverness coat would make useful armour out of it, and nothing they could probably do to a buff coat in the time they have would make it better armor than it is already. (Also, afaik, neither coachmen nor anyone else in this era were prone to wearing buff coats, they being a piece of military apparel some centuries out of date at that time.)

Wouldn't wearing several leather coats always tend to make useful armour, in the sense that it would give at least DR 1 and possibly more if you could accept a lot of weight and some DX penalties?

Given enough time, taking shoe, boot or even saddle leather and layering it over the chest would make for useful armour, in the absence of something metal. As several posters have noted, however, sewing metal protection into leather, canvas or cloth will likely tbe the best solution, assuming that the PCs have time for something like that.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Edit: One of the colonials has compiled a report on the weapons carried by the infamous Tongs of San Francisco.

Yes, mutatis mutandis, I expect that the Cockney, Irish and Jewish gangs of Whitechapel will carry something like this. Sailors at the Docklands will be fond of knives and there will be rough Irish and Lascar sailors or dockworkers with plenty of useful melee weapons at hand.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Things that can be 'smashed' conveniently tend to make poor armor.

Icelander wanted armor plate to insert in a chest pocket, probably bulletproof if horribly heavy, and a bathtub could be a good source of it.
Of course, wrought iron or steel sheet is preferable to cast iron, but finding and cutting it will be harder.
I am certainly not advocating making any kind of fitted armor with it, just armor plates.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Also, afaik, neither coachmen nor anyone else in this era were prone to wearing buff coats, they being a piece of military apparel some centuries out of date at that time.

My mistake, I used the wrong name.
Whatever you name the full-lenght leather and fur coat a coachmen wear under the london rain at that time is what I mean. It should provide a convenient basis for the kind of armor Icelander described. Strong enough not to tear under the weight of reinforcement, and ample enough that it won't restrict mobility when made semi-rigid by thick leather addon.


Celjabba

[Polydamas]

I was surprised to see that so many arrested Chinese carried revolvers given the cost of one in the 1870s.

Originally Posted by Icelander

If they ever came into possession of museum armour, foreign suits of armour taken as trophies or any valuable memorabilia of Waterloo, they'll have likely sold it to someone wealthier than they are, in order to afford more immediately useful things. The more prosperous citizens of Whitechapel are tradesmen and hard workers who feed large families and invest spare capital in their businesses, not the idle rich and decadent who have the luxury to collect valuable objects as a hobby.

Victorians did like a parlour full of knick-nacks, and I am not sure that a shirt of Persian mail or a native cavalryman's jacket was worth much in England in 1888. Egerton mentions that after the Sudan War all the bazaars in Cairo were full of swords and muskets and quilted coat priced as junk or tourist kitsch depending on what the seller thought they could get away with. But its not my period ...