[RPM] a collection of questions

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Also, what if the setting has intrinsic limitations on certain types of spellcasting? For example in AD&D, creating new spells is certainly possible but is a long and arduous process. This is partly covered by limiting the mage's Ritual Adept advantages, so they require extra time and facilities when creating spells. But if it also requires difficult Invention rolls, it's a significant limitation compared to standard RPM. Should this have any impact on the cost of playing a mage?

Make it a feature that you can only cast spells you have the Ritual Mastery perk for. You have to either be trained in the perk or invent it.
It weakens RPM casters a lot but I think meets your goal.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I don't understand. Spells are not learned, Path skills are. If you have a particular Path skill that covers a spell ... you can cast it. You might require this for Ritual Mastery perks or even if one Path has never been discovered before then, but not for spells themselves.

I guess I'm talking about settings where magic is not so flexible - which I recognize isn't the intention of RPM, I just find it such a useful and interesting system that I try to squeeze it into every nook I can find. For folks who want to use RPM-style casting for settings with mostly-defined spell lists (such as AD&D, or the recent thread about using RPM with GURPS Magic's spell list) it makes sense that, while tweaking individual rituals is easy, casting new ones (ie, those not covered by a character's Grimoires or Ritual Mastery) is harder. In such a setting it might also make sense to have "basic" Grimoires that allow casting at no penalty, but also provide no bonus.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I guess I'm talking about settings where magic is not so flexible - which I recognize isn't the intention of RPM, I just find it such a useful and interesting system that I try to squeeze it into every nook I can find. For folks who want to use RPM-style casting for settings with mostly-defined spell lists (such as AD&D, or the recent thread about using RPM with GURPS Magic's spell list) it makes sense that, while tweaking individual rituals is easy, casting new ones (ie, those not covered by a character's Grimoires or Ritual Mastery) is harder. In such a setting it might also make sense to have "basic" Grimoires that allow casting at no penalty, but also provide no bonus.

Yeah. That's basically a setting feature. I'd make it so you can only cast spells you have Ritual Mastery for or for which you have a Grimoire; there'd be no cost alteration required, I should think, unless some people can come up with rituals on-the-fly, in which case they should probably have an Unusual Background.

[JP42]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I guess I'm talking about settings where magic is not so flexible - which I recognize isn't the intention of RPM, I just find it such a useful and interesting system that I try to squeeze it into every nook I can find. For folks who want to use RPM-style casting for settings with mostly-defined spell lists (such as AD&D, or the recent thread about using RPM with GURPS Magic's spell list) it makes sense that, while tweaking individual rituals is easy, casting new ones (ie, those not covered by a character's Grimoires or Ritual Mastery) is harder. In such a setting it might also make sense to have "basic" Grimoires that allow casting at no penalty, but also provide no bonus.

This is interesting because it comes up all the time with modular abilities, gadgeteering or in other systems (Hero/Champions "Variable Power Pools") - it's important because a slow-cogitating player can slow down an entire game as he tries to figure out a spell on the fly.

I'm fond of a middle ground - one where you can't make up new spells on the fly, but you can do anything with your power. It means that the player needs to write up a list of spells for pre-game approval from the GM, and he can do any of those effects, but he can't slow the game down with improvisational casting.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by JP42

I'm fond of a middle ground - one where you can't make up new spells on the fly, but you can do anything with your power. It means that the player needs to write up a list of spells for pre-game approval from the GM, and he can do any of those effects, but he can't slow the game down with improvisational casting.

Precisely. I guess this can be handled pretty well by the limited Adept option: they can design new spells when they're at their home base, in a sanctified ritual space and with plenty of time. Trying to do so in the field runs into the usual non-Adept penalties.

Anyways, I feel like I'm kinda hogging this thread. I'll hold back from asking anything else for a bit. =P

[JP42]

Okay, I'll jump in with a question. Enchantments. The rules are clear, but not very flexible. They work under a set of assumptions about paying points for permanent ownership of magical items not of your own manufacture, and paying points (or the equivalent in training time, tricksy rules writers) to create your own.

How can this be modified, or does it need to be, to better suit a Dungeon Fantasy style of game where magic items are not rare and wondrous, but common and expected?

[Humabout]

I'll say it again: I'm convinced that the enchantment rules for Symbol Drawing can be adapted. I think it'd actually boil down to finding the right multiplier for energy cost and rolling from there. One of these days, I'll get around to doing an analysis of the differences in casting costs between Spells and similar Rituals. That should help determine the multiplier.

Then again, in a DF-style game, while magic items are common, players don't make them; they loot them. So you still don't need - and probably don't want - enchantment rules. But I get where you're coming from, nonetheless.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

I guess I'm talking about settings where magic is not so flexible - which I recognize isn't the intention of RPM, I just find it such a useful and interesting system that I try to squeeze it into every nook I can find. For folks who want to use RPM-style casting for settings with mostly-defined spell lists (such as AD&D, or the recent thread about using RPM with GURPS Magic's spell list) it makes sense that, while tweaking individual rituals is easy, casting new ones (ie, those not covered by a character's Grimoires or Ritual Mastery) is harder. In such a setting it might also make sense to have "basic" Grimoires that allow casting at no penalty, but also provide no bonus.

Ah-ha! I see what you're saying. I did this exact thing when running one of my campaigns. I transitioned over from the standard spell system to RPM (which is also when I did my own conversion of Magic spells to ritual path magic spells). At first, I only allowed rituals that duplicated existing spells, then I slowly allowed the PCs (and one in particular) to figure out that spells weren't as rote as they thought. Adding a Armor Disorder to Fireball, increasing the time of the Haste ritual and so on. I treated each "varied" spell as a Simple invention and "new" spells as Average (for 30 energy or less), Complex (for 30 to 150 energy), and Amazing (151 or more energy). It worked pretty well and eventually one new spell lead to the fracture of magical energy that enabled the use of free form spell casting.

Originally Posted by Langy

Yeah. That's basically a setting feature. I'd make it so you can only cast spells you have Ritual Mastery for or for which you have a Grimoire; there'd be no cost alteration required, I should think, unless some people can come up with rituals on-the-fly, in which case they should probably have an Unusual Background.

Pretty much this.

Originally Posted by JP42

Okay, I'll jump in with a question. Enchantments. The rules are clear, but not very flexible. They work under a set of assumptions about paying points for permanent ownership of magical items not of your own manufacture, and paying points (or the equivalent in training time, tricksy rules writers) to create your own.

How can this be modified, or does it need to be, to better suit a Dungeon Fantasy style of game where magic items are not rare and wondrous, but common and expected?

Difficulty. Permenant magic is hard in RPM and that's not a bug, that's a feature. I've got some irons in the fire for a treatise on the topic, so pay attention to Pyramid. :-)

Originally Posted by Humabout

I'll say it again: I'm convinced that the enchantment rules for Symbol Drawing can be adapted. I think it'd actually boil down to finding the right multiplier for energy cost and rolling from there. One of these days, I'll get around to doing an analysis of the differences in casting costs between Spells and similar Rituals. That should help determine the multiplier.

Then again, in a DF-style game, while magic items are common, players don't make them; they loot them. So you still don't need - and probably don't want - enchantment rules. But I get where you're coming from, nonetheless.

Possible. Difficult (I've looked at it before at your behest), but possible.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by JP42

Okay, I'll jump in with a question. Enchantments. The rules are clear, but not very flexible. They work under a set of assumptions about paying points for permanent ownership of magical items not of your own manufacture, and paying points (or the equivalent in training time, tricksy rules writers) to create your own.

How can this be modified, or does it need to be, to better suit a Dungeon Fantasy style of game where magic items are not rare and wondrous, but common and expected?

Switch out entirely the point cost for a dollar cost, possibly based on the points-for-money equivalence.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Difficulty. Permenant magic is hard in RPM and that's not a bug, that's a feature. I've got some irons in the fire for a treatise on the topic, so pay attention to Pyramid. :-)

Perhaps we could plunder the Conditional Termination concept from Thaumatology. The duration costs in Thaum (pg 243) are a lot lighter than those in RPM, so the Conditional costs would likewise be increased. Cursing someone to turn into a statue "Until the castle rises above the clouds" would be a seemingly-impossible condition, equivalent to a duration of a century or so. In Thaum that's 16 energy, while in RPM that would be 121 (magnified by the Greater effects that are likely involved). Enchanting a ring with magical properties "Until cast into the fires from whence it was forged" is not quite as impossible, though still could be an indefinite duration.

The result of this is that "permanent" enchantments are possible, but gruelingly expensive and always have a defined condition that can break the enchantment. I think that's nicely flavorful and fits many artifacts of legend.