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Old 10-20-2018, 02:47 PM   #41
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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So instead of discussing what "rules" to use when a player's wizard sets another player's dwarf's beard on fire, we should ask "what works for the story" when that happens?
No, obviously you should figure out the length of the beard, cross-reference the Hair Coarseness number, figure out whether magical fire burns any hotter than regular fire, and then consult the Damage From Burning Beard Hair Table to figure out how many dice to roll and how long the beard will burn . . .

Or you could wing it.

TFT is a game where "wing it" is almost always the correct answer for the situations not already contemplated in the rules. Phil's point, at the risk of paraphrasing my boss, is that we are going to resist quite aggressively the idea that TFT should become a game with 100 splatbooks covering everything from harlotry to falconry (including that crossover appendix for people who like to bring their birds on dates). Nothing chokes the life out of a "fast, fun" game like the idea that it requires more books than a five-year undergraduate degree.
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:22 PM   #42
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

I've been assuming that if the week's work is lost, the weekly materials are also lost.
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:30 PM   #43
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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If that is the usual method of magic item creation then the prices for all items ought to be doubled.

Just add to the errata sheet tucked into the box this disclaimer:

Page 150: Magic Item Creation Table: The listed prices are for a theoretical optimized process rarely if ever seen in actual practice. These are the prices the players can reasonably get when selling these items. When the players wish to purchase magic items the costs should be at least double the listed values, if the item (or a wizard who can make the item) can be found at all.
That seems like an appropriate sort of note to add, yes, or at least "the minimum weeks to create (when the wizard makes all their weekly DX rolls)". And probably mentioning that it's really up to the GM to determine when/where/if there are any items of a desired type for sale to adventurers, and/or available enchanters for hire.
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Old 10-20-2018, 03:45 PM   #44
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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No, obviously you should figure out the length of the beard, cross-reference the Hair Coarseness number, figure out whether magical fire burns any hotter than regular fire, and then consult the Damage From Burning Beard Hair Table to figure out how many dice to roll and how long the beard will burn . . .

Or you could wing it.

TFT is a game where "wing it" is almost always the correct answer for the situations not already contemplated in the rules. Phil's point, at the risk of paraphrasing my boss, is that we are going to resist quite aggressively the idea that TFT should become a game with 100 splatbooks covering everything from harlotry to falconry (including that crossover appendix for people who like to bring their birds on dates). Nothing chokes the life out of a "fast, fun" game like the idea that it requires more books than a five-year undergraduate degree.
Ok, but it doesn't seem like an appropriate reaction to these topics, to me. No one is wanting advanced beard burning rules, and harlotry and falconry haven't been brought up yet (though there was quite an article on harlotry in the original TFT magazine).

The Fire spell is a very common spell and since original Advanced Wizard mentioned you could cast it on a beard but not what that would do. I don't get how discussing how to handle that calls for intervention.

In this thread, the issue seems to be that the original post over-stated the difficulty of enchanting items (and was posted at the same time in a few threads - we probably could have kept it to the thread in House Rules), but there is a pretty practical response to that which again leads to a useful conclusion and seeming agreement.

If the idea is to have a lite welcome forum for new players, perhaps there ought to be another sub-forum for rules discussion, and the main one could be explicitly not for detailed discussions and seeming rules issues. But it seems to me there is a desire & need for a place to discuss such issues. i.e. If I were a new player excited by a rules-light RPG, I don't think I'd be bothered if there were a forum titled Detailed Rules Discussion. Then topics which start to get into crunchy goodness/badness can be started and/or moved in there.
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Old 10-20-2018, 04:01 PM   #45
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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No, obviously you should figure out the length of the beard, ....
SJ Games have made a small miracle happen by getting the game back into production. Great work all of you, and it is much appreciated!

But... I really don't understand why representatives from SJ Games are coming into the forums to dismiss admittedly nerdy discussions about TFT rules. Isn't that something you want to encourage rather than shut down? Isn't that one reason why the forums exist?
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Old 10-20-2018, 04:06 PM   #46
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
In this thread, the issue seems to be that the original post over-stated the difficulty of enchanting items (and was posted at the same time in a few threads - we probably could have kept it to the thread in House Rules), but there is a pretty practical response to that which again leads to a useful conclusion and seeming agreement
I agree w/ Skarg here. While I do find tangent taken by the SJG guys interesting (and quite refreshing, TBH, coming from the guys selling the rules), the core issue of this thread is the fact that the changes to XP progression (both the rate at which you can earn it and the escalating cost of stat increases) coupled w/ an 'effective' limit on character stat totals have altered the foundational assumptions that drove the in-game creation of greater magical items and their availability within the game world.
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Old 10-20-2018, 04:49 PM   #47
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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Isn't that something you want to encourage rather than shut down?
One of the most consistent pieces of feedback we get about the GURPS forums is from new-to-GURPS people who join up to ask a fairly simple question and get completely overwhelmed with detailed answers (often of the "you should check out these five supplements for more information!" variety) and often competing interpretations of the rules from people using this poor newbie's question as yet another place to rehash the same arguments they've been having for fifteen years or more.

Phil has shown me the letters, from people who really wanted to be fans but got completely turned off by the culture there. It's heartbreaking, and it led me to build the Munchkin 101 forum explicitly designed for new players to ask questions and get simple answers.

So maybe the solution is to set up GURPS 101 and TFT 101 forums for those basic questions from new players and abandon the "main" forums to the folks who started playing during the Carter administration. That's not a decision I can make. What I *can* do is keep pointing out that if the goal is to sell the game to a new generation of gamers, we can't start by building a wall of historical rulings and competing rules-lawyer briefs so tall and opaque that no one can get or even see inside.

We absolutely understand the excitement from people who have a place to talk about new TFT for the first time in over 35 years. Really, we do. But please don't make it so uninviting for everyone else that you're the ONLY ones talking.
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Old 10-20-2018, 05:31 PM   #48
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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One of the most consistent pieces of feedback we get about the GURPS forums is ...

We absolutely understand the excitement from people who have a place to talk about new TFT for the first time in over 35 years. Really, we do. But please don't make it so uninviting for everyone else that you're the ONLY ones talking.
There is a sadness, yes, and a sort of childlike happiness, from seeing this game make a comeback.

And I agree with Mr. Hackard. It can be daunting to introduce new players to any game that has any sort of "history" of contentious rules, and I'm not saying TFT is full of contentious rules, but it comes from a different time, and a different place, among the world of RPG/ttMini games.

For me, I am coming to terms with the idea that I will simply not get to play this game in the way I really want to play it, for a whole lot of reasons. First, I'm 55, and I don't have a lot of friends who play these kinds of games, alright I'll admit it, outside of my adult children, I have no friends who play these games, and a trip down to the game store means meeting people who don't know me, and often are much younger than I am, which itself makes me uncomfortable.

But, I was happy to back the kickstarter, and excited to be part of many of the discussions here about where the game came from and where it might be going.

I hope that everyone who wants to play gets to have a chance to play in the style that feels like it is fun for them, and I also hope that everyone who has ideas about how the rules work, should work, don't work, or could work, feels welcome here and finds a community with all sorts of levels of participation from serious analytical breakdowns, to not so serious pondering.

thank you,
David
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Old 10-20-2018, 05:33 PM   #49
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

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Originally Posted by Andrew Hackard View Post
One of the most consistent pieces of feedback we get about the GURPS forums is from new-to-GURPS people who join up to ask a fairly simple question and get completely overwhelmed with detailed answers...
Yes, I've experienced that, and I have been a GURPS fan/player/GM since that game came out! As such, I both appreciate that there is such a rich body of experienced players available, and find it impossible to keep up with the amount of discussion, and am sad that there is no more accessible place for new players to get into the game. (I also find the GURPS 4e Basic Set pretty daunting just because it includes material for every character tweak and genre under the sun in one place, though I know it can be an accessible game, especially if you start with a good GM and/or a shorter edition of the rules than the 4e Basic Set.)

Seems like both GURPS and TFT could use a Welcome or 101 forum.


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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
If that is the usual method of magic item creation then the prices for all items ought to be doubled.
Interestingly, if you run the math on some simple items, and pay guild rates for the apprentices and wizards, and assume all the rolls are made, you end up with a cost to create an item that is approximately half the listed price. So the listed cost corresponds roughly to the cost to hire a DX 10 head enchanter to enchant the item (in which case you need to wait for it to be completed). But means the listed cost is the cost of making the item, if you are paying the wizards and apprentices guild rates for their time.


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Originally Posted by The Wyzard View Post
I've been assuming that if the week's work is lost, the weekly materials are also lost.
I assume so too.
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Old 10-20-2018, 07:46 PM   #50
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Default Re: Because only a Halfling could forge the one-ring in the first place

Put a ~100 word limit on questions and answers in your 101 forum, and perhaps you'll see more people do a better job of getting to the point!
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