Improving the Tonfa

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Icelander

My problem with using Staff damage as a benchmark is that I think that typical strikes made while enjoying the +2 Parry bonus from using a Staff is far from being a full extension strike.

There ought to be a difference in the damage of a staff used with Staff skill and one used with Two-Handed Sword skill. The former gives up some reach with the swing and significant leverage for increased defensive utility, but in the rules as written, there is no penalty to doing so. Staff does sw+2 and has Reach up to 2 cr no matter how you hold it, so there is no GURPS benefit to styles that also teach Two-Handed Sword skill with the staff.

that's a good point, and to be fair it's not exactly clear what was being claimed in regards to the full length staff vs. tonfa

[Kalzazz]

I'd give it Sw+3 like a great sword maybe

One of my former coworkers refused to carry the issue baton considering it only useful for pulling his pants down. It was about 3ft long, .75 lb, aluminum with no side handle, and was hollow and made lovely ringing noises whenever it struck something hard like a chair by accident

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by Sindri

Specifically it's a 3 pound weapon, starts at reach 1, requires ST 10 and can't be used with Knife. That's twice the weight of the GURPS tonfa, longer reach than it on a thrust and 3 ST higher of a requirement.

Originally Posted by Gollum

Thank you for the informations about the light club. It is a far much heavier weapon that what I imagined...

My mental image when the word "club" is mentioned is something like an SM+1 knobbed club, or perhaps a tetsubo with the metal studs replaced with the wood just being knotty. The "light club" is a very light weapon in comparison to that.

Originally Posted by Icelander

My problem with using Staff damage as a benchmark is that I think that typical strikes made while enjoying the +2 Parry bonus from using a Staff is far from being a full extension strike.

In my campaign I allow staves, spears, and polearms to be held in "two-handed weapon grip" or in "staff grip" - the former gives full damage and reach while the latter penalizes damage and reach while granting a parry bonus (+2 for the quarterstaff and spear, +1 for most polearms).

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Alright, let's put together some of Gollum's statements about the tonfa/tonkwa to generate a technique.

First, we're talking about a technique of spinning the tonfa to strike. I'm going to assume we're starting with it in a normal (Reach 1) grip and making a full circle to build up speed and hit.

No problem for the reach. This technique can't be use in close combat. But a full circle is not necessary. Usually, this kind of attack makes half a circle. As shown on the video, the speed is reached thanks to an ankle, elbow and wrist move.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Gollum's statements imply something like +2 to sw damage.

+1 to sw damage in the last post.

Originally Posted by Varyon

He's also made note of the tonfa being unbalanced when used like this, implying difficulty in following up the maneuver with a Parry.

Yes. That's why budokas use two tonkwas at the same time. One to attack and the second one to parry.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Altogether, I'd say this is probably a Hard Technique with a +1 to damage, typically used as part of a Committed or All Out Attack (Strong) [...]

An all-out attack would be exaggerated, indeed, since this specific attack still allows to parry (with the second tonkwa). But committed attack really fits because the parry may not be so easy...

Hey! But you've got it. No need to improve damage in the rules. The committed attack could just handle this kind of technique...

Wow... GURPS is really great...

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I'd say that if spinning the tonfa gives more damage at the expense of defending with it, it sounds like a text book committed (strong) attack.

And this works well in IMO as you use these things in pairs so you do that with one and parry with the other.

so even at current stats Gollum's ST11 teacher is doing 1d+2 on such a committed attack that on average is a major wound on the Skull of similar target.

Yes. As said in my post above, I now agree with that.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

At the end of the day the tonfa is baton that's traded reach and an awkward grip for some clever techniques that take skill to leverage.

Not exactly. The tonkwa is much more thick than the bo and the jo. At minimum two times. And, as I said above, its shape is very specific which may improve even more its speed while turning.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

While I can happily see that a good tonfa strike to the skull or joint is disabling, we are ultimately taking about locations with either a really high damage multiplier, or really low HP threshold for crippling.

Yes. I do agree now. And with the +1 for committed strong attack, it makes the job.

But all that doesn't answer to Sindri questions about how to make tonkwa skill more attractive. After all, it was considered as a very good weapon in Okinawa. Good enough to remain in all kobudo training around the world... So, it surely has some interesting advantages...

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I'd say that if spinning the tonfa gives more damage at the expense of defending with it, it sounds like a text book committed (strong) attack.

Except all melee weapons can be used with Committed Attack (Strong), and this is meant to be something only tonfas can do (thanks to their peculiar design). A Technique fits the bill nicely. Making it only usable with Committed/All Out Attack (Strong) may be realistic, but I opted to err on the side of usability.

Originally Posted by Gollum

No problem for the reach. This technique can't be use in close combat. But a full circle is not necessary. Usually, this kind of attack makes half a circle. As shown on the video, the speed is reached thanks to an ankle, elbow and wrist move.

Fair enough. From your description (YouTube tends to be rather laggy for me, so I'm not going to bother with the video), it does sound like this should require a Committed/All Out Attack. The skill roll (really, Reverse Grip roll) that precedes the technique switching from a reversed to normal grip is probably alright.

As for further options for utilizing/improving the tonfa, if katars and patas are usable with Knife, Shortsword, and Broadsword, the tonfa should probably be usable with Shortsword, and the Tonfa skill - like Jitte/Sai, Lance, and Saber - should go away. Cinematic characters may be able to use the tonfa with Smallsword instead (probably a Weapon Adaptation). Another thing to note about the tonfa is that with its low MinST a character with ST 11 is at +1 to make or resist a Feint, suffers only -3 (rather than -4) when making subsequent Parries, and is at +1 for A Matter of Inches (MA110). A character with ST 14 (common for cinematic tonfa users) is instead at +2, -2, +2 above.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Icelander

My problem with using Staff damage as a benchmark is that I think that typical strikes made while enjoying the +2 Parry bonus from using a Staff is far from being a full extension strike.

There ought to be a difference in the damage of a staff used with Staff skill and one used with Two-Handed Sword skill. The former gives up some reach with the swing and significant leverage for increased defensive utility, but in the rules as written, there is no penalty to doing so. Staff does sw+2 and has Reach up to 2 cr no matter how you hold it, so there is no GURPS benefit to styles that also teach Two-Handed Sword skill with the staff.

Yeah, the problem I have with Staff, Two-handed sword and Polearm is that they all use very similar techniques and body mechanics, so they should be very close in defaults and capabilities. I feel like a staff's defensive awesomeness primarily comes from the length of the weapon and the strength of the grip or stance to apply leverage even at distant points.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

that's a good point, and to be fair it's not exactly clear what was being claimed in regards to the full length staff vs. tonfa

Kobudo teaches two manners of handling a bo.

The ordinary one, in which the parry is enhanced because the length of the weapon is the same on both side of your body. You can for instance parry an attack to the knee with one side of the weapon while attacking the neck at the same time with the other side of the weapon...

And a handling like a long two-handed sword. The reach is then longer and the damage may be improve (the lever effect is higher).

When I was comparing tonkwa and bo damage, I was speaking about the ordinary use... Like Icelander, I'm not sure you can have both advantages at the same time...

[Sindri]

Originally Posted by Otaku

So... anyone know why this change happened? There are some other ideas I had, but I'd better keep it as narrow a focus as I'm good with.

It's probably a victim of space constraints. Martial Arts and Low-Tech allow the tonfa to be used with Brawling, Karate or DX for the grip where the long arm is pointed back to get the fist load/heavy gloves/hilt guard damage bonus and to get protection when using the arm to parry and also to be used with Tonfa to allow the improved Reverse Grip technique and damage and reach deemed appropriate for hitting with the long arm. Presumably holding it like a sword or kama should not give the bonus to Reverse Grip but that's unaddressed.

Originally Posted by Icelander

My problem with using Staff damage as a benchmark is that I think that typical strikes made while enjoying the +2 Parry bonus from using a Staff is far from being a full extension strike.

There ought to be a difference in the damage of a staff used with Staff skill and one used with Two-Handed Sword skill. The former gives up some reach with the swing and significant leverage for increased defensive utility, but in the rules as written, there is no penalty to doing so. Staff does sw+2 and has Reach up to 2 cr no matter how you hold it, so there is no GURPS benefit to styles that also teach Two-Handed Sword skill with the staff.

sw +2 cr is also the damage of a bokken used with two hands.

Originally Posted by Gollum

But all that doesn't answer to Sindri questions about how to make tonkwa skill more attractive. After all, it was considered as a very good weapon in Okinawa. Good enough to remain in all kobudo training around the world... So, it surely has some interesting advantages...

And it's not like it's kobujutsu's token inconspicuous weapon which could conceivably allow it to stick around without competition in it's niche. Kobujutsu is famous for having the sort of weapons that compete with the tonfa. It does seem like one of the styles that likes to collect weapons but when it comes to slimming down the number of weapons being trained it's my impression that tonfa are really not one of the ones to go.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Sindri

sw +2 cr is also the damage of a bokken used with two hands.

Bokken are not 6 foot lengths of hardwood. I make my own wasters from cherry, hickory, ash and walnut on occasion, and while lighter in construction, they are extremely powerful great swords, to the point that unarmored, full power exercise with them will produce real injury. A 6-7 foot length of a good hardwood is going to deliver more damage if I hold it at a high guard as a longsword, and deliver a massive overhead strike. That's the sort of strike can cleave a 90 or 100lb deer in half with an actual sword, but will also crack a man's skull wide open with a staff or waster.

There's a big difference from a bokken that's maybe 42" in length and a 58" or 72" length of hardwood.