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Old 08-23-2018, 08:31 AM   #1
martinl
 
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Default Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

Spawned off another thread because off topic for it:

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Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
for example a demigod might have something like ST 30 HT 20 DX 20 IQ 20 and Altered Time Rate, Damage Reduction 3, Enhanced Time Sense, DR 20 (Forcefield), Regeneration: Fast and primary combat skills around 30. They would have other things as well, like spells, mobility (Flight and/or Warp), Terror, very high or very low Appearance etc.
I see this sort of thing all the time in all sorts of games and there is one thing that is seriously wrong in representing mythology: that darned IQ 20 [1]. The gods I remember from myth and legend might have had one or two smarties among them, but most were not notably bright. I know I have a quasi-instinctive reaction as a GM to make gods bestest at everything, but really if I want to model Ares or Thor IQ 20 is not a good choice.


(You folks who are about to jump in and have an argument about what GURPS IQ represents go start your own thread now please.)


What breaks, exactly, if Hercules has IQ 11 (Will 17) or Odin has IQ 13 (Per & Will 30)?

More points spent on skills? Irrelevant for an NPC and on theme for a God.

Lower defaults? OK, so Gods aren't automatically awesome at things they don't practice? Seems ok to me.

PCs might trick them? A veritable net positive.

What does the hivemind think?

[1] DX 20 is not automatically a good model either, but not as egregious.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:49 AM   #2
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

I think you might want to break out wisdom (or in GURPS terms, Common Sense) from smarts here. A lot of gods seem reasonably intelligent, but prone to making terrible life choices due to lust, anger, or other human vices. Not too many of them just get fooled or outwitted unless it's a story specifically about a trickster figure. (And said trickster figures are often the ones making poor life choices as well...)
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:05 AM   #3
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinl View Post

(You folks who are about to jump in and have an argument about what GURPS IQ represents go start your own thread now please.)
Such an argument would only strengthen your case, but ok.





Quote:
there is one thing that is seriously wrong in representing mythology: that darned IQ 20

Quote:
What breaks, exactly, if Hercules has IQ 11 (Will 17) or Odin has IQ 13 (Per & Will 30)?
I do think this is the way the Gods of Myth should be represented. There are a few cavets to this though:


Often the Metal Disadvantages of a God are more important that their IQ. Zeus makes most mistakes not because he can't see what's coming, but because he cares about something else more and it blinds him.



Gods of myth often have inferior social and tactical skills compared to humans, but deep knowledge into things mortals don't. They are able to transform beasts, know the future, and invent technologies just because they want to. So that needs to be represented somehow.



Its also possible that Gods have great intelligence but just don't get human life. slap a -6 familiarity penalty anytime you're working with mortals, and a lot of the behaviors of myth start to make sense.



Think about YOUR characterization of a god. You're going to have to make some calls about their stats and abilities. I actually think Heracles is one of the more clever Gods. Almost none of his feats are those of strength alone. He figures out solutions to invulnerable monsters, cleans stables through engineering, tricks titans, and negotiates with Gods, even before he fully joins their ranks.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:34 AM   #4
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Gods of myth often have inferior social and tactical skills compared to humans, but deep knowledge into things mortals don't. They are able to transform beasts, know the future, and invent technologies just because they want to. So that needs to be represented somehow.
For inventing technologies, see GURPS Powers: The Weird for Gadgeteer with various Cosmic modifiers, starting with "Can invent things that violate the laws of physics, +50%."
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:49 AM   #5
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

A lot of the myths I know seem more like a lack of knowledge for whoever invented the stories. In that they had to come up with genius scenarios for the heroes to outsmart someone with, but they don't have high levels of strategy themselves to do so.
We see the simplicity of the plans and take that to mean the characters are idiots rather than the intended feature of the heroes being super intelligent.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:06 AM   #6
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

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A lot of the myths I know seem more like a lack of knowledge for whoever invented the stories. ...
OK, but most of the PCs are in exactly the same bucket - the players aren't legendary clever tricksters either.
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Old 08-23-2018, 06:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

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A lot of the myths I know seem more like a lack of knowledge for whoever invented the stories. In that they had to come up with genius scenarios for the heroes to outsmart someone with, but they don't have high levels of strategy themselves to do so.
We see the simplicity of the plans and take that to mean the characters are idiots rather than the intended feature of the heroes being super intelligent.
Who wants to get drunk in a tavern while listening to an in-depth analysis of Operation Torch by a lecturer talking in an Oxbridge accent? OK maybe I do. But really?

Of course Xenophon would have loved the idea. And one of the most famous writings about Socrates is "Drinking party." But a lot of the stories were written for dumb people, or at least people uninterested in being particularly smart at that moment. It really says more about the audience then the teller. And still more about the flexibility of the media.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:12 AM   #8
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
Often the Metal Disadvantages of a God are more important that their IQ. Zeus makes most mistakes not because he can't see what's coming, but because he cares about something else more and it blinds him.
While mental attributes other than IQ certainly inform the behavior of many gods, IQ is also relevant. Zeus, as far as I know, is not one for consistently clever or well thought out plans. You might argue that he doesn't need them but in that case his behavior is still consistent with lower IQ.

Quote:
I actually think Heracles is one of the more clever Gods.
As do I - see my reply to Bill.
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Old 08-23-2018, 10:52 AM   #9
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

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Originally Posted by martinl View Post
While mental attributes other than IQ certainly inform the behavior of many gods, IQ is also relevant. Zeus, as far as I know, is not one for consistently clever or well thought out plans. You might argue that he doesn't need them but in that case his behavior is still consistent with lower IQ.ll.
Mechanically speaking being clever and thinking through your plans has nothing to do with IQ. The effects of high IQ are

1. A great ability to notice things
2. Being good at book-larning and art
3. Being highly resistant to certain kinds of supernatural influence
4. Being both persuasive and hard to persuade.

"Not being a fool led by his dick" is not something that IQ gives you.

Last edited by David Johnston2; 08-23-2018 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 08-23-2018, 11:21 PM   #10
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Default Re: Gods and Demigods - not really that smart

I might build gods as two closely associated beings: the avatar, which is the part with personality, mental disadvantages, and a defined form, and the divinity, which is essentially indestructable and posesses the ability to know all/see all etc.

The divinity has IQ 20+, and uses it when miracles call for superhuman cognition, but the avatar doesn't have direct access to those smarts.
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