Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-03-2010, 12:26 PM   #1
SuedodeuS
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Default [Ultra-Tech] Backpack Speedloader

I have an idea for what I think would be an interesting device for a soldier. It is essentially a small backpack with a single slot for an external magazine. The pack itself has a large internal magazine, which it uses to rapidly refill the inserted magazine. It can also be run "in reverse" to refill the pack on the go (using partial magazines), or it can be opened for more direct access to refill/empty it. Such a device would allow the carrying of fewer magazines (in theory you could get away with just two) and also improve the feasibility of reloading when the magazine isn't completely empty yet. Essentially it turns the soldier into your typical FPS character, who always has a full magazine so long as he has enough rounds to do so.

Naturally, what I need here are stats for such a thing. What size is it likely to be? How much would it weigh? How many rounds would its internal magazine be able to carry (one could probably extrapolate from HT rules on drum magazines)? What size power cell would it run on, and how long (how many rounds) would it last? What speed would it reload at? Also, would it be possible to design it such that the magazines slot in in a manner conducive to Fast-Draw? If so, would the Quick-Sheathe Perk be available for use here (so that one could in theory Quick-Sheathe an empty mag and then Fast-Draw another to reload a weapon)? What TL would such a thing first be possible at, and what improvements would occur per TL?

I have some ideas for the questions above, but am mostly lost (and, unfortunately, don't have the time at the moment to try and puzzle a good deal of it out). Some guidelines/ideas, however...
Size/weight: It should still allow for (or perhaps be built into) a proper pack. It would be able to replace some load-bearing equipment, however, due to a decrease in the number of magazines one needs carry (and the speedloader should double as load-bearing equipment for the magazines). As for weight, it isn't going to be that useful if it weighs more than a comparable number of magazines would.
Number of rounds: Unless it can be made rather tiny, it probably isn't going to be very useful unless it can carry at least 4 full magazines of ammunition.
Power: I don't think it would burn through power very quickly. At a minimum, the typical power cell it's equipped with should be able to fully unload the internal magazine.
Reload: I figure it would be able to load/unload rather quickly. Does 10 rounds/sec seem too fast or too slow? Note this is a little faster than an M16 can unload its magazine when using a burst limiter.
Fast-Draw: I think you could design the device to kind of wrap around the lower torso and have the ports here, where Fast-Draw/Quick-Sheathe would be possible. Otherwise you're shoving in and pulling out magazines at an uncomfortable angle and you again need the load-bearing equipment for carrying spares.
TL: Honestly, I'd imagine a spring-operated or man-powered version to be possible as early as TL5. At TL6+, battery-powered versions would be available. Reload speed would probably top out around TL8, although reliability would likely continue to increase. Of course, I suspect it wouldn't be viable (in terms of weight and rounds carried) until TL9 or so when caseless ammunition becomes common, and of course such a device doesn't currently exist (to the best of my knowledge), which is why I tagged this [Ultra-Tech].


EDIT: And, of course, if you think such a device would be a useless gimmick, feel free to say so (bonus points if you explain why it would be such).
__________________
Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat.
Latin: Those whom a god wishes to destroy, he first drives mad.
SuedodeuS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 01:58 PM   #2
thulben
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Default Re: [Ultra-Tech] Backpack Speedloader

For me, the issue of whether something like this is practical or not would be: can such a device be made smaller/more convenient that the equivalent number of magazines? That is to say, that if it contains 5 mags worth of ammunition, how is it better than just carrying 5 mags? From a more practical standpoint, you'd want more magazines so that you don't wear out the spring in the one or two mags that you have. Also perhaps more of a real-world issue, do rounds ever jam in a magazine? If so, it would seem that with this setup you're hosed whereas with carrying multiple mags you just switch out and go. I could see something like this at a firing range (for a group that's highly standardized like a military or police force); you could plug it in and have it attached to a *big* source of ammo. I hope you don't take this as peeing in your Cheerios, but you did ask for feedback. :)
thulben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 03:12 PM   #3
SuedodeuS
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Default Re: [Ultra-Tech] Backpack Speedloader

Taking up less space (and, perhaps more importantly, weighing less) than an equivalent number of magazines is crucial for the feasibility of this device. As for magazines wearing out, I'd expect regular maintenance of the magazines, as well as building them to higher standards, would alleviate this problem. If all else fails, just replace the mags once in a while.

Personally, I've never heard of a magazine failure, but it does seem like something that could happen. Regular maintenance of the speedloader should help prevent this, and if all else fails you could probably design it such that immediate action (like with a jammed rifle) is possible. Issues related to ruggedness might be cause for the device to only be feasible at TL9 or higher.

I should note that what prompted the design was the concept of a tactical reload - dropping a mag that still has rounds in it and replacing with a fresh one during a short lull in fighting (or, for soldiers, after a combat has been resolved). It struck me that doing this several times could end up with a case where you still have 2-3 magazines worth of ammunition but don't have a single full magazine. Some method of rapidly extracting ammunition from one partial and pumping it into another would get rid of this problem. Once I came up with the concept, it struck me that such a design would allow one to get away with fewer actual magazines if it could also hold a large reservoir of ammunition.

So, with ammo in 7 magazines, you have X number of rounds, but you'll only have a full magazine in your weapon up to 7 times. With ammo in 2 magazines and one 5-magazine backpack speedloader, you have the same X rounds but virtually always have a full magazine in your weapon. There's also the fact that scrounging ammo from fallen allies (or enemies, if both sides are using the same weapons) could be done without having to take on more magazines - link up the two speedloaders and drain away the fallen's reserves (and/or just empty the fallen's magazines into your speedloader).
__________________
Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat.
Latin: Those whom a god wishes to destroy, he first drives mad.
SuedodeuS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 04:43 AM   #4
Khaoticphury
 
Khaoticphury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: East Coast
Default Re: [Ultra-Tech] Backpack Speedloader

I could see parking one of these on a truck or in an arms room. But if you're going to personally carry around a giant motorized ammo drum, you should be using a belt fed weapon. (If your belt fed weapon drum had an option to be loaded by or load out rounds to a magazine, that might be handy.)
Other wise, you want to carry your combat load in multiple magazines. If you get a weapons jam or your buddy needs magazines, you definitely don't want all of your rounds trapped inside a metal box. I also wouldn't want a giant heavy metal thing in lieu of a backpack with things like socks or food.
And yes, magazines do malfunction. Spring fatigue, dinged up edges, a quirky magazine that double feeds, etc.
How about instead of a ammo drum that reloads magazines, some sort of magazine carousel that pushes a fresh mag out to the same place everytime? Instead of multiple ammo pouches, you'll always have one RIGHT THERE. Weapon jam? Drop mag, grab a new one! Peel 'em off, pass 'em off to your friends. A magazine magazine, if you will.
__________________
You do realize I'm usually wildly intoxicated when I write these, right?
Khaoticphury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 10:36 AM   #5
SuedodeuS
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Default Re: [Ultra-Tech] Backpack Speedloader

Good points, Khaotic. As I said, the main purpose of the device is to keep the magazines you have full, rather than just making it easier to carry ammunition. Note that carrying around few magazines isn't necessary for the scheme, simply enabled by it. If you foresee the need to toss extra mags to your allies, you could probably carry around 4 magazines. If you need to toss them more than 2 mags, clearly they are going through far too much ammunition (you'd be starting each battle with the same amount of ammo, as the speedloaders would be able to quickly share via linkup). I do like the idea of the "magazine of magazines," although that doesn't handle the problem of ending up with a bunch of partial magazines.

Also, the sort of design I'm envisioning would be something more akin to a Camelbak (although with ammo rather than water, of course) - it would either allow for a traditional pack or be built into one.

As a final note, I guess this is really something more for adventurers than soldiers, what with it being inspired by First-Person Shooter mechanics. Ending up with a bunch of partial magazines seems more likely for an adventurer than a soldier, after all (although I could be mistaken).
__________________
Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat.
Latin: Those whom a god wishes to destroy, he first drives mad.
SuedodeuS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 11:38 AM   #6
Kale
 
Kale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Cowtown, Canada
Default Re: [Ultra-Tech] Backpack Speedloader

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuedodeuS View Post
As a final note, I guess this is really something more for adventurers than soldiers, what with it being inspired by First-Person Shooter mechanics. Ending up with a bunch of partial magazines seems more likely for an adventurer than a soldier, after all (although I could be mistaken).
Yeah, the first Ghost Recon (not the new 'Advanced Warfighter' series) had indivdual mag tracking. Each soldier in your squad had 10 or 15 mags for his rifle, and changing mags just cycled through them. It gave you some motivation to try to drain a mag down rather than just swap out for a fresh one after firing only a few shots.
__________________
FYI: Laser burns HURT!
Kale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 12:11 PM   #7
safisher
Gunnery Sergeant,
 Imperial Marines
Coauthor,
 GURPS High-Tech
 
safisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Default Re: [Ultra-Tech] Backpack Speedloader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaoticphury View Post
I could see parking one of these on a truck or in an arms room.
This is what we use now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zos_7e-c4t0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nKy9...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JylIz...eature=related

The major advancement is saving your thumbs, and the speed of loading magazines with single rounds. A device which would look like a bulk ammo can full of loose rounds which could instantly refill a magazine might be useful in certain circumstances, but I would imagine in most cases simply carrying more magazines (or using a belt feed) would be better.
__________________
Buy my stuff on E23.
My GURPS blog, Dark Journeys, is here.
Fav Blogs: Doug Cole here , C.R. Rice's here, & Hans Christian Vortisch here.
safisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 12:34 PM   #8
Kale
 
Kale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Cowtown, Canada
Default Re: [Ultra-Tech] Backpack Speedloader

Quote:
Originally Posted by safisher View Post
This is what we use now:
Thanks for the links! Those are some pretty interesting gadgets! Still though, it looks more like something you'd want to keep back at camp or in your truck/APC rather than try to drag around with you.
Still, a suitable Gadgeteer PC with a bit of a crazy bent might come up with one for field use in a semi- or highly-cinematic game for quick mag top-ups.
__________________
FYI: Laser burns HURT!
Kale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 02:13 PM   #9
SuedodeuS
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Default Re: [Ultra-Tech] Backpack Speedloader

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kale View Post
Still, a suitable Gadgeteer PC with a bit of a crazy bent might come up with one for field use in a semi- or highly-cinematic game for quick mag top-ups.
And this is the kind of thing I want to stat up, although I most certainly appreciate the feedback that's shown me why this isn't something that would see use in a realistic military (aside from possibly resupplies). If I'm running a game based off, say, Crysis, I suspect such a device would prove rather useful for the special operatives (although in that case I'd probably have to handwave it as some sort of "smart" material such that it can handle the initial 5.56 loadout and the later 7.62 loadout). I'd prefer to hew close to realism for its actual stats, however.
__________________
Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat.
Latin: Those whom a god wishes to destroy, he first drives mad.
SuedodeuS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2010, 02:37 PM   #10
Kale
 
Kale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Cowtown, Canada
Default Re: [Ultra-Tech] Backpack Speedloader

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuedodeuS View Post
And this is the kind of thing I want to stat up, although I most certainly appreciate the feedback that's shown me why this isn't something that would see use in a realistic military (aside from possibly resupplies). If I'm running a game based off, say, Crysis, I suspect such a device would prove rather useful for the special operatives (although in that case I'd probably have to handwave it as some sort of "smart" material such that it can handle the initial 5.56 loadout and the later 7.62 loadout). I'd prefer to hew close to realism for its actual stats, however.
Safisher's links showed a benchtop mag recharger that looked like it probably weighed a few pounds. You lay a bunch of rounds side-by-side in a tray and it rams them into the mag. Basically convert that into a belt or maybe bandoleer-style ammo holder with a bunch of rounds stacked side-by-side in it. You would insert your mag into an adapter and the system would push enough rounds into the mag to fill it. It could be manually operated with a lever or something (takes a turn to push). You could probably have the loading system weigh 2 to 4 lbs + weight of the extra ammo. One turn to insert a mag, one turn to push the lever to force the rounds in, then you have a fully-loaded mag. If the system holds a LOT of extra ammo (100+ rounds) then you may want to add a little extra weight to represent the container or belt holding them all.
__________________
FYI: Laser burns HURT!
Kale is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ultra-tech

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.