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Old 11-03-2019, 04:42 AM   #21
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Pacifism

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Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Setting dependant of course. In games where indirect killing is difficult, this should be worth a bit more. Like maybe -5 points.

In games where the killing has to be up close and personal, it's basically worth even more, like say in Dungeon Fantasy.
I advise caution when doing this: one of the tenets of GURPS is that a particular trait should cost the same anywhere if it's available at all. This is obviously one of the places where that breaks down (to use published books as examples, it should be worth more in GURPS Ice Age than in GURPS Ogre) but that's the price of cross-system compatibility.
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Old 11-03-2019, 06:24 AM   #22
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Pacifism

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I advise caution when doing this: one of the tenets of GURPS is that a particular trait should cost the same anywhere if it's available at all.
Which is a tenet that flat out doesn't work and should be stricken from the tablets for all time.

As an ethos for design? Sure, it's fine. But hard baked right along side should be the notion (and a discussion on how to do it) that ability prices can be dependent on campaign genre.

And that also means everything currently in GURPS needs to be rechecked against this "cost the same anywhere" ideal, as Combat Reflexes is outright breaking it from jump.
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:25 AM   #23
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Pacifism

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Which is a tenet that flat out doesn't work and should be stricken from the tablets for all time.

As an ethos for design? Sure, it's fine. But hard baked right along side should be the notion (and a discussion on how to do it) that ability prices can be dependent on campaign genre.

And that also means everything currently in GURPS needs to be rechecked against this "cost the same anywhere" ideal, as Combat Reflexes is outright breaking it from jump.
No it isn't. Combat Reflexes costs the same in any genre even though it's nearly useless in GURPS Corporate Soap Opera.
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Old 11-03-2019, 08:28 AM   #24
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Pacifism

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That's a pattern I see in a number of players. We want to play heroic types (and we don't want our buddies playing thoughtless murderers), and that involves some sort of restraint when it comes to noncombatants. On the other hand, everytime I read the disadvantages I think "I'll pass on this", even though the character is highly unlikely to ever break those restrictions.
GURPS disadvantages tend to be exaggerated pathological forms of everything, which makes them a poor fit for characters who are relatively sane balanced people.

I'm fairly generous with "lesser" versions as a result. I allow (and encourage) Code of Honor (decent member/citizen of [something]) [-5], and Quirk (half serious Vow of [something]) [-1] where you aren't going to be utterly incapable of doing something awful if there is a good reason, don't suffer a mental breakdown if you have to or be required to buy it off and instantly and radically change your behavior, but you do get docked a character point for bad roleplaying if you break it without first trying any other reasonable approaches. That's enough of a metagame price it forces players to think a little before they jump straight to murder, and enough that it'll balance any points they got from the small values given out quickly enough if they don't.
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Old 11-03-2019, 08:30 AM   #25
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Pacifism

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GURPS disadvantages tend to be exaggerated pathological forms of everything, which makes them a poor fit for characters who are relatively sane balanced people.
That doesn't seem to be the case with Reluctant Killer, though.
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Old 11-03-2019, 05:22 PM   #26
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Pacifism

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No it isn't.
It is because not only is Combat Reflexes' cost based on "we want people to take it" rather being based on the cost of it's utility, but as you mention there are plenty of genres where it isn't even worth it's drastically lowered price.

Which is why everything should be priced based on a 'standard' common usage pricing, then have flexible guidelines on how to reprice based on "what you want to see in your campaign".

To note: The only games I ever saw people taking Combat Reflexes in 3e were either ones I ran or supers games, because the other GMs all thought it was way to cheap for what it gave and either outlawed it completely or added a hefty UBC onto it.
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Old 11-03-2019, 05:34 PM   #27
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Pacifism

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It is because not only is Combat Reflexes' cost based on "we want people to take it" rather being based on the cost of it's utility, but as you mention there are plenty of genres where it isn't even worth it's drastically lowered price.

Which is why everything should be priced based on a 'standard' common usage pricing, then have flexible guidelines on how to reprice based on "what you want to see in your campaign".
I've never felt much need for that sort of thing. I do see the utility of Unusual Background in making such adjustments, but really I hardly ever use it. Mostly if I don't want something I just ban it.

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To note: The only games I ever saw people taking Combat Reflexes in 3e were either ones I ran or supers games, because the other GMs all thought it was way to cheap for what it gave and either outlawed it completely or added a hefty UBC onto it.
I don't think I've seen GMs do either in the GURPS campaigns I've been in: a Caribbean pirate campaign, a Dragaeran swashbuckling fantasy campaign, and a mid-range supers campaign, among others.
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:42 PM   #28
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Pacifism

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It is because not only is Combat Reflexes' cost based on "we want people to take it" rather being based on the cost of it's utility,
The cost of utility has absolutely nothing to do with it. In fact if you priced things according to "utility" the cost would in fact vary from genre to genre. It does not.
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Old 11-03-2019, 09:01 PM   #29
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Pacifism

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I've never felt much need for that sort of thing.
I feel the need all the time. I commonly make Advantages cheaper if want them taken (or more readily available), more expensive if they are to be rarer, Disads cheaper if they have reduced impact on the game, etc.

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I don't think I've seen GMs do either in the GURPS campaigns I've been in: a Caribbean pirate campaign, a Dragaeran swashbuckling fantasy campaign, and a mid-range supers campaign, among others.
I've played in somewhere around 20 campaigns since the late 80's... and most the GMs I had in 3e banned, UBCed, or made getting Combat Reflexes more difficult* in some manner.

All for the same reason "it's too good".


* Or they banned or UBCed the 'Unholy Triumvirate' of Combat Reflexes, High Pain Threshold, and Ambidexterity.



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The cost of utility has absolutely nothing to do with it.
It does. Combat Reflexes explicitly is priced to be taken by everyone planning on getting their PCs into combat. It's one of the most utility priced advantages in the game (from the definition of: "the state of being useful, profitable, or beneficial").

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In fact if you priced things according to "utility" the cost would in fact vary from genre to genre. It does not.
Which is why I suggested: "Which is why everything should be priced based on a 'standard' common usage pricing..."

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Old 11-03-2019, 09:29 PM   #30
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Default Re: [Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: Pacifism

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It does. Combat Reflexes explicitly is priced to be taken by everyone planning on getting their PCs into combat. It's one of the most utility priced advantages in the game (from the definition of: "the state of being useful, profitable, or beneficial").
Utility has nothing to do with whether or not prices vary according to genre. In a genre where you don't expect combat there's just not much reason to buy...or expect...combat reflexes. And "utility priced" doesn't mean "inexpensive". It means "priced high if it's very useful". That's not the basis for the price of Combat Reflexes. It's "How easy should it be to transition from combat rookie to combat hardened."
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