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Old 03-23-2018, 12:49 AM   #11
Jim Kane
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Default Re: DEFINING SHIELDS IN TFT - Existing Rules and Extrapolations

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
No problem. You'll have to follow the links a bit. There were like four or five posts in a row.

Also, I should note that "shields really ought to do more" is one of the foundational principles in my upcoming Dragon Heresy RPG. So this is also something I've been working for the better part of two years. It's not out of my way.
I appreciate you pointing out the existing trail you have already blazed, and also, the invite to follow along to see what I may cull for TFT purposes while questing along.

Thanks again Douglas.

JK
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Old 03-23-2018, 03:34 PM   #12
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Default How Rick beefed up shields.

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
...
Also, I should note that "shields really ought to do more" is one of the foundational principles in my upcoming Dragon Heresy RPG. So this is also something I've been working for the better part of two years. It's not out of my way.
Hi Everyone, Douglas.
(Sorry if this is posted twice. I thought I had written it but it didn't appear.)

I also agree that shields are very important, so I've added two new talents: "IQ 9 Shield ii (2)" and "IQ 11 Shield iii (2)". The first talent improved the damage protection of a shield by 2 verses melee attacks thru the front hexes. The second makes you -2 to hit via melee attacks thru your front hexes.

I like that you need training to become expert in a shield.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 03-25-2018, 06:42 AM   #13
Jim Kane
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Default Re: DEFINING SHIELDS IN TFT - Existing Rules and Extrapolations

Here's a very cool cinematic piece of shield-play from the 1963 movie: Jason and the Argonauts (Ray Harryhausen, stop-motion special effects). Check out 00:35 on the time-code, as the Skeleton Warrior uses it's own shield to hook and strip (disarm) it's opponent of having a shield. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOZK4MiIMZM

Now, for a cinematic-style campaign, that's a combat option with shields that I would be interested in exploring.

JK
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Old 03-25-2018, 08:28 AM   #14
DouglasCole
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Default Re: DEFINING SHIELDS IN TFT - Existing Rules and Extrapolations

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
Here's a very cool cinematic piece of shield-play from the 1963 movie: Jason and the Argonauts (Ray Harryhausen, stop-motion special effects). Check out 00:35 on the time-code, as the Skeleton Warrior uses it's own shield to hook and strip (disarm) it's opponent of having a shield. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOZK4MiIMZM

Now, for a cinematic-style campaign, that's a combat option with shields that I would be interested in exploring.

JK
So, using GURPS martial arts, Technical Grappling (vested interest alert!), one would represent this by first grappling using the shield (all weapons can Armed Grapple at Skill-2), and then scoring Control Points. The skeleton can then spend those control points to strip the shield from Jason - this is basically a disarm. Strapped shields are considered to have Control Resistance - effectively "armor" that resists grappling. Buckler-gripped shields do not.

Anyway, the key, high-level bits that apply to ANY fighting game:

1. Grappling is really important, and core to fighting. Nearly every weapons system from knives to pole-axes has a mode that integrates grappling

2. If it's integrated into the fighting style, it should be integrated into the mechanics at the same abstraction level as striking. They're not that different in complexity in reality (both striking and grappling are VERY complex)

I have become a big fan of Conditions for effects where possible in my own game design efforts. Stacked conditions are also good (Grappled, Grappled 2, Grappled 3, etc).

This allows a referee to employ a "check-box" method when figuring rules for 50 NPCs on the other side of a battle.

Anyway, one mechanical possibility

1) Roll to hit. TFT seems to use DX as a catch all. That's good.
2) If successful, roll damage. Damage type can be injury or control
3) If control is high enough, apply a condition (grabbed, grappled, restrained, incapacitated are the conditions from my DnD5e book Dungeon Grappling)
4) You can do fun things if your control is high enough, like disarms, takedowns, damaging throws, etc. You can also, on a further successful attack, convert stored control directly to damage. That's an arm bar or a joint lock kind of thing.

With the shield discussion, much of what you saw there in the (very cinematic) movie is interesting from certain "not all shields are created equal" perspective;

beating the heck out of the shield like that isn't real good for either the shield *or the sword* Bronze-age swords would bend; in fact, bloomery iron swords would bend too.

The greek shields were faced with bronze, and very heavy. They're probably not quite as mobile as all that (but then: freakin' JASON and undead untiring skeletons). So of many of the historical shields, those are probably among the best for taking a beating like that

It's a movie, and at least the way I was taught, the thing where you swing your sword and let the shield come behind you as part of the wind-up is gonna get you killed. Well, killed again: the skeletons are already dead.

Aside: Look at how much grappling and striking goes on. Kicks, takedowns, throws, shield-disarms, blade binds (grapples!) . . .

anyway, I would need to sit down and actually PLAY TFT before I started tossing out mechanical "improvements" so that I don't basically recreate GURPS Technical Grappling while folks look at me like "dude. This is not a peanut-butter/chocolate situation you have created."

But the more that we think of shields as a dynamic, actively employed weapon and less of a slab of wood sitting on an arm, the better.

(note: Pathfinder 2e is going this way. They are making it one of a character's 3 actions per round in order to claim full benefit from a shield)
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Old 03-25-2018, 02:14 PM   #15
Jim Kane
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Default Re: DEFINING SHIELDS IN TFT - Existing Rules and Extrapolations

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
So, using GURPS martial arts, Technical Grappling (vested interest alert!), one would represent this by first grappling using the shield (all weapons can Armed Grapple at Skill-2), and then scoring Control Points. The skeleton can then spend those control points to strip the shield from Jason - this is basically a disarm. Strapped shields are considered to have Control Resistance - effectively "armor" that resists grappling. Buckler-gripped shields do not.

Anyway, the key, high-level bits that apply to ANY fighting game:

1. Grappling is really important, and core to fighting. Nearly every weapons system from knives to pole-axes has a mode that integrates grappling

2. If it's integrated into the fighting style, it should be integrated into the mechanics at the same abstraction level as striking. They're not that different in complexity in reality (both striking and grappling are VERY complex)

I have become a big fan of Conditions for effects where possible in my own game design efforts. Stacked conditions are also good (Grappled, Grappled 2, Grappled 3, etc).

This allows a referee to employ a "check-box" method when figuring rules for 50 NPCs on the other side of a battle.

Anyway, one mechanical possibility

1) Roll to hit. TFT seems to use DX as a catch all. That's good.
2) If successful, roll damage. Damage type can be injury or control
3) If control is high enough, apply a condition (grabbed, grappled, restrained, incapacitated are the conditions from my DnD5e book Dungeon Grappling)
4) You can do fun things if your control is high enough, like disarms, takedowns, damaging throws, etc. You can also, on a further successful attack, convert stored control directly to damage. That's an arm bar or a joint lock kind of thing.

With the shield discussion, much of what you saw there in the (very cinematic) movie is interesting from certain "not all shields are created equal" perspective;

beating the heck out of the shield like that isn't real good for either the shield *or the sword* Bronze-age swords would bend; in fact, bloomery iron swords would bend too.

The greek shields were faced with bronze, and very heavy. They're probably not quite as mobile as all that (but then: freakin' JASON and undead untiring skeletons). So of many of the historical shields, those are probably among the best for taking a beating like that

It's a movie, and at least the way I was taught, the thing where you swing your sword and let the shield come behind you as part of the wind-up is gonna get you killed. Well, killed again: the skeletons are already dead.

Aside: Look at how much grappling and striking goes on. Kicks, takedowns, throws, shield-disarms, blade binds (grapples!) . . .

anyway, I would need to sit down and actually PLAY TFT before I started tossing out mechanical "improvements" so that I don't basically recreate GURPS Technical Grappling while folks look at me like "dude. This is not a peanut-butter/chocolate situation you have created."

But the more that we think of shields as a dynamic, actively employed weapon and less of a slab of wood sitting on an arm, the better.

(note: Pathfinder 2e is going this way. They are making it one of a character's 3 actions per round in order to claim full benefit from a shield)
Douglas - You observations are excellent, your hypothesis of how to translate the nuances of the intricacies of combat are impressive, and your aside about the skeletons being killed "again" was hysterical.

When do you get a chance to play some TFT, and tweak-about with your concepts as they might fit in, I think the key-thing to keep in mind is that TFT would generally express the option of "Hooking and Striping" the shield from an opponent as a simple process along the lines of something like:

1) A single DX roll (of more than the standard 3d6) to bring the whole "Hook and Strip" situation about as a combat result in one shot.

or possibly,

2) A DX roll (with modifier) to "Hook" the opponent's shield, and then a ST roll (with modifier) to "Strip" it from their grasp; rendering it as "Dropped".

On-the-whole, TFT tends to boil everything down to as few calculations and die rolls as possible as a matter of principle.

While your ideas are AMAZING - and I love reading your posts - I can see the level of combat detail you express as fitting better into a 3rd "Expert Melee" rule book, or even 4th "Master Melee" book - as combat system expansion books; as opposed to the flow and scope of Melee or Advanced Melee as they stand today.

I am going to hope sales and player demand from the re-release warrant such combat system expansions, and perhaps SJ might even ask you to do those detailed "Expert" and "Master" level books for us - including rules for all the Cinematic "Captain Kirk Combatisms" we see in play during Jason's Battle with the Skeletons! Did you catch the roll-over/leg-throw which sent the Skeleton flying over the wall? LOL! Awesome! The only thing missing was the Star Trek "Danger/Combat Music", the "Shatner Drop-Kick", and the "Kirk Flying Tackle". LOL! Great Cinema!

Thoughts?

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-27-2018 at 10:44 AM. Reason: Typos
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Old 03-29-2018, 02:00 PM   #16
ak_aramis
 
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Default Re: DEFINING SHIELDS IN TFT - Existing Rules and Extrapolations

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Originally Posted by Dave Crowell View Post
As the owner of several shields I feel comfortable in saying that you can carry a torch, spare spear or javelin, etc in your shield hand. Lanterns are not very good, the shield casts a huge shadow for one thing. You can't really parry effectively with a shield if you are also using that hand to carry something else. It is awkward but can be done.

I think most RPGs tend to downplay the utility of shields. They are great for blocking attacks, much more so than the 5% of D&D, and can also be used offensively.

One thing that is probably more a factor for role playing adventuring than for arena style combats is that shields are heavy. Carrying a shield for an extended period will tire your arm out. This is a major reason for carrying them slung with a strap instead of on your arm.
With a targe (using near-edge handle and opposite edge strap), I've even fought (SCA Fencing) with a short blade off-hand; it really did allow some very nifty parrying and trapping. (The Tattershall guys found it offensively NPS....) Same for the scabbard off-hand with the Targe.

Now, for the center-held buckler, not so good.

Note that many shields had protective cups over the handle/strap, so in such cases, it's not readily doable.
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Old 04-05-2018, 08:55 PM   #17
Jim Kane
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Default Re: DEFINING SHIELDS IN TFT - Existing Rules and Extrapolations

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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
With a targe (using near-edge handle and opposite edge strap), I've even fought (SCA Fencing) with a short blade off-hand; it really did allow some very nifty parrying and trapping. (The Tattershall guys found it offensively NPS....) Same for the scabbard off-hand with the Targe.

Now, for the center-held buckler, not so good.

Note that many shields had protective cups over the handle/strap, so in such cases, it's not readily doable.
The center-handle shields you mention were the inspiration for a rules proposal I drafted on Turning A Shield (being center-handled, as opposed to edge-handed and strapped) You can read that idea http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=156561 if you might have an interest.

JK
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Old 04-05-2018, 10:53 PM   #18
DouglasCole
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Default Re: DEFINING SHIELDS IN TFT - Existing Rules and Extrapolations

If anyone's interested, I filmed - for my current Kickstarter - a few shots of sparring with viking-style shields and equipment.

https://youtu.be/p5VqmmKhxQ4

Fighting starts 1:16 in. It's semi-choreographed, because I wanted to show certain things. You can see what we call an "overbind" in the first clip, as Dale turns my shield in my hand to expose my sword arm and side. The second cut you can see me using my axe to turn Dale's shield, and then use that opening to strike to the neck. The final is shield-and-spear vs two weapons - a sword and an axe. We did this one a few time, with me trying to hook the spear to control it, but he simply withdraws it and finishes. I don't really try and defend.
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Old 04-05-2018, 11:49 PM   #19
Jim Kane
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Default Re: DEFINING SHIELDS IN TFT - Existing Rules and Extrapolations

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
If anyone's interested, I filmed - for my current Kickstarter - a few shots of sparring with viking-style shields and equipment.

https://youtu.be/p5VqmmKhxQ4

Fighting starts 1:16 in. It's semi-choreographed, because I wanted to show certain things. You can see what we call an "overbind" in the first clip, as Dale turns my shield in my hand to expose my sword arm and side. The second cut you can see me using my axe to turn Dale's shield, and then use that opening to strike to the neck. The final is shield-and-spear vs two weapons - a sword and an axe. We did this one a few time, with me trying to hook the spear to control it, but he simply withdraws it and finishes. I don't really try and defend.
Great stuff Douglas!

JK
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