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Old 04-13-2019, 10:06 AM   #11
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

There ought to be an online or PDF index that is updated with every book.
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Old 04-16-2019, 01:45 PM   #12
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

The problem is, rules breed like tribbles. In actual fact every single thing that is done by anyone uses energy and fatigues them to some extent. Detailed fatigue rules could add pages that would constantly need be referenced and totally subvert play of the game. The more detailed the rules the worse it would be since detailed rules would imply that anything not included is considered free of causing fatigue.

The best approach is what has already been done. Scatter examples of things that cause fatigue through the rules so people get a feel for what the GM may want to apply a penalty to. That is all that is needed. If, as GM you tell your players that as a result of their 30 mile forced march the day before and failure to find any food for last nights supper as well as nothing for breakfast, that everyone starts the day with 3 fatigue hits against them everyone should understand that. If one of your players tells you that isn't in the rules and you cant do that, they need be gently counseled on the concept of a GMed game.
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Old 04-16-2019, 02:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

oldwolf:

It does not require multiple pages to add a few simple lines like "A character loses 1 ST (as Fatigue) every X turns they continue to fight without rest" and "…every Y turns they continue to run" and "…every Z days of forced marching". It can be exactly that simple, just a guide to establish a practical baseline.

It would be a better guideline than failing to pull yourself out of a pit, at least. And it would provide some numbers to go with the otherwise undefined examples that ITL itself makes. Citing specific activities (like "running too far too fast") and not giving any numbers for them is just teasing.

Is that clarification "needed"…? Well, evidently you think it isn't — but respectfully, I think it is. So I shall continue to chew on that withered old bone until somebody gives me a nice fresh bacon-flavored rawhide to replace it.
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Old 04-16-2019, 03:08 PM   #14
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

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Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
oldwolf:

It does not require multiple pages to add a few simple lines like "A character loses 1 ST (as Fatigue) every X turns they continue to fight without rest" and "…every Y turns they continue to run" and "…every Z days of forced marching". It can be exactly that simple, just a guide to establish a practical baseline.

It would be a better guideline than failing to pull yourself out of a pit, at least. And it would provide some numbers to go with the otherwise undefined examples that ITL itself makes. Citing specific activities (like "running too far too fast") and not giving any numbers for them is just teasing.

Is that clarification "needed"…? Well, evidently you think it isn't — but respectfully, I think it is. So I shall continue to chew on that withered old bone until somebody gives me a nice fresh bacon-flavored rawhide to replace it.
The problem with a "simple" rule like you suggest is massively increased bookkeeping. I don't want to be tracking Fatigue lost through exertion during a combat, especially with multiple figures involved. This changes the game more than I'm interested in.

I would like all the notes and guidelines about Fatigue combined in one place for ease of reference so that, as a GM, I can use them "if I want to and if it serves the story." It's a button I'll press every now and again for effect but I don't want it on all the time. That's a different game entirely.
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Old 04-16-2019, 05:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

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Originally Posted by Charles G. View Post
… (Parenthetically I do understand your view if you are taking it as "keep track of every round while fighting and assigning fatigue penalties every X turns as warranted - in that case you'd be right, but that is not what I would suggest)
I agree, micromanaging Fatigue is not on my Xmas List either. I have no desire to track it all the time, because it almost never matters — I'd just like some rules for those rare times when it does matter.

To be perfectly technical, it wouldn't even be a 'New Rule' — because ITL has a rule for Fatigue, as well as references to non-spellcasting activities that cause it. So it's not like I'm asking for something that isn't already there. I would be quite content with just having some specific numbers given for those otherwise unhelpfully vague examples.

And I categorically reject the notion that a few extra (relevant) numbers would — or even could — ruin the whole game.

In any event, it would still be a judgement call for the GM. Everything always is.

Last edited by FireHorse; 04-16-2019 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:16 PM   #16
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

Personally, I'm not a big fan of GURPS-like tracking of encumbrances and whatnot, but if one of my players is taking that giant golden bathtub along on his back on the way back to town, and they get ambushed by some Orcs, he just might be too pooped to fight, ya know? And that's about all the level of detail I want or need for TFT, I think. Of course, others may feel very differently!
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Old 04-16-2019, 11:07 PM   #17
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

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… if one of my players is taking that giant golden bathtub along on his back on the way back to town, and they get ambushed by some Orcs, he just might be too pooped to fight, ya know? …
Oh, yes, I know exactly what you mean. It's odd how Karma works like that.

But when you (as GM) decide to inflict Karma on the greedy little munchkins, you need the Gods on your side. For example, if one of your players is new and brings a character in from another GM's table, and while looking over his sheet you discover that he is (allegedly) carrying nearly a quarter million gold pieces on his person… you need a rule about Encumbrance to put him down without a fight.

Or (to cite another actual example) suppose your players think they're terribly clever for buying a wagon to carry all their loot — because they figured out that selling all the equipment they strip off the corpses of their victims could easily add up to more money than the total coinage they'd found. And then suppose they decided that, as long as they had the wagon anyway, they'd also plunder the statuary and even the furniture from the temple of the Death God.

Obviously, it should come as no surprise that the wagon throws a wheel while they're heavily loaded and fleeing the vengeful Death Cultists. But they will accept their fate much more readily (or with a bit less argument, anyway) if you can point to a Rule — say, their lack of Wagoneering skill — as the reason for the mishap, rather than admitting that it's just the GM's personal sense of Justice. :)
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Old 04-17-2019, 03:33 AM   #18
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

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Originally Posted by FireHorse View Post
Oh, yes, I know exactly what you mean. It's odd how Karma works like that.

But when you (as GM) decide to inflict Karma on the greedy little munchkins, you need the Gods on your side. For example, if one of your players is new and brings a character in from another GM's table, and while looking over his sheet you discover that he is (allegedly) carrying nearly a quarter million gold pieces on his person… you need a rule about Encumbrance to put him down without a fight.

Or (to cite another actual example) suppose your players think they're terribly clever for buying a wagon to carry all their loot — because they figured out that selling all the equipment they strip off the corpses of their victims could easily add up to more money than the total coinage they'd found. And then suppose they decided that, as long as they had the wagon anyway, they'd also plunder the statuary and even the furniture from the temple of the Death God.

Obviously, it should come as no surprise that the wagon throws a wheel while they're heavily loaded and fleeing the vengeful Death Cultists. But they will accept their fate much more readily (or with a bit less argument, anyway) if you can point to a Rule — say, their lack of Wagoneering skill — as the reason for the mishap, rather than admitting that it's just the GM's personal sense of Justice. :)
I think this may be why I disagree with people about the need for more detailed rules on things like fatigue. I don't perceive the player-GM interactions being as adversarial as you seem to have experienced. I haven't GMed or been a player at a table top RPG for a number of years, when I did everyone got along and players and GM cooperated to have fun. Have things devolved to where GMs need frequently back up simple things like assessing a fatigue penalty for an unusually long and difficult days travel with direct rules references?
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Old 04-17-2019, 04:18 AM   #19
Chris Rice
 
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

Good point Oldwolf. The sort of players who would demand a rules reference for a GM ruling on that sort of thing aren't the sort I'd like to play with. I'm sure they do exist, but hopefully they're all playing together and enjoying constant rule referencing.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:05 AM   #20
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Default Re: Other than Spellcasting, what ELSE causes Fatigue?

I agree that fatigue rules that are just punitive book keeping are not a good use of anyone's time or mental energy. But if they help create another 'game within a game' by providing a manageable resource for something like overland travel, exploring challenging environments, etc., then I think it can be a great idea. E.g., Imagine you have party lost in the desert trying to find The Haunted Oasis of Thrarjangle; if you are taking a point of fatigue loss every 3 hours in desert without water, it imposes a sense of concrete urgency and consequences on the situation.
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