Patron and its problems

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Then the rules you're using do not apply, not even to give you a ballpark estimate.

Then we need another book (or advantage) covering the characters who are involved in the organizations's highest levels of decision making. How may we approach the subject?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Then we need another book (or advantage) covering the characters who are involved in the organizations's highest levels of decision making. How may we approach the subject?

I don't currently have a theory of that.

It seems to me that the need for such a book is not great. Most GURPS players are not going to be interested in playing heads of state or founders of new states; such roles don't offer much in the way of opportunities for adventures. You hardly ever see people discussing their campaigns about mayors and city councils, or presidents and premiers, or anything of that sort. When such details are needed, they're generally going to be derived from a narrative based on the GM's understanding of how the world actually works, not as dictated by GURPS rules but based on readings in history and military theory and large-scale economics.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Most GURPS players are not going to be interested in playing heads of state or founders of new states; such roles don't offer much in the way of opportunities for adventures.

Only that they do and thats why games like Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Rise of nations, Age of empires, Crusader kings, Civilization, Democracy, a song of ice and fire and much more do actually exist. I mean, maybe the current player base do not actually have an interest on games based on intrigues and socializing, but dont you think that the player base could always be expanded?

I dont know the actual numbers but from my personal experience games which limited the social aspect of the mechanics have a male dominated market while games wich improved them tend to have a larger and better mixed player base. I started playing GURPS because it offers MUCH BETTER SOCIAL DYNAMICS than other RPG games, which I consider an opportunity to stand out.

Which is even better, the actual mechanics allow to easily implement an hypothetic system mirroring the Hit Points attribute standing for "Resistance in Social Combat", which I have succesfully done in my games. In the end I think that there are very little things that cannot be done with GURPS and if we were able to come up with them then it would become even greater than it is.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

I dont know the actual numbers but from my personal experience games which limited the social aspect of the mechanics have a male dominated market while games wich improved them tend to have a larger and better mixed player base. I started playing GURPS because it offers MUCH BETTER SOCIAL DYNAMICS than other RPG games, which I consider an opportunity to stand out.

What social aspect are you talking about? My own current campaign has a lot of social elements; in recent sessions, we have dealt with one of the PCs picking a suitable wife and getting engaged, and another buying an inn and setting it up in business. That's fact to face. But then there is the business and political management end, which is more a matter of using organizational skills. Those are two different sorts of "social" game mechanically.

[Kalzazz]

I've done 'PCs can set policy' before, but only off the cuff winging it

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Excuse me but according to several books Rank is directly linked to Patron. It is even specifically used to replace Patron.

That almost sounds like my point. If you have an organization as a patron then that either means you are a most favoured employee and they'll do more stuff for you than your rank would suggest,or you aren't a member of the organization, but are regarded as a valuable outside asset. In the Supergirl TV series, the DEO was her Patron because even though they were willing to do things for her and she was willing to do things for them, she actually had no formal relationship with them. She was not on their payroll, even though the presidents never seemed to grasp that fact.

But having an organization as a Patron is not the same thing as being the commander of the organization. If the Icelandic government will do things for you because you are the President of Iceland, that's Rank, not Patron. If the Icelandic government will do things for you because you are Captain Trollhammer, Iceland's greatest (and only) superhero, that's Patron, not Rank. And the kind of things they will do for you are a bit different. Iceland will not give you a new passport under any name you want because you are the President. Iceland will not revise investment banking regulation for you because you are Captain Trollhammer.

[ericthered]

Gurps will handle heads of state and a "Rulership" type game. I've played it and recommended the resources I've used to others. Its a fun sort of game.

The core things needed are
GURPS: City Stats
Pyramid 54's article "City Management".
Mailanka's "Orphan of the Stars"

Gurps: Mass combat is often useful as well. These resources will give you the framework to play a ruler ship game, with ball parked numbers.

A couple of suggestions:

• Let city stats or organization stats drive the economics game, not the character building rules.
• You need strong NPC personalities in both subordinate and rival positions. They should have strong wants, strong opinions, and strong resistance to social skills, along with skills of their own
• Actions should have both economic and social costs. Sure, you can spare the cash to equip two new units of bowmen. But even something as simple as that effects public opinion. Who leads these bowmen? What segment of society are the troops raised from? How do the existing soldiers see this action? How do your neighbors see it?

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Gurps will handle heads of state and a "Rulership" type game. I've played it and recommended the resources I've used to others. Its a fun sort of game.

The core things needed are
GURPS: City Stats
Pyramid 54's article "City Management".
Mailanka's "Orphan of the Stars"

Gurps: Mass combat is often useful as well. These resources will give you the framework to play a ruler ship game, with ball parked numbers.

A couple of suggestions:

• Let city stats or organization stats drive the economics game, not the character building rules.
• You need strong NPC personalities in both subordinate and rival positions. They should have strong wants, strong opinions, and strong resistance to social skills, along with skills of their own
• Actions should have both economic and social costs. Sure, you can spare the cash to equip two new units of bowmen. But even something as simple as that effects public opinion. Who leads these bowmen? What segment of society are the troops raised from? How do the existing soldiers see this action? How do your neighbors see it?

Reading the blog. Give me some time.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Only that they do and thats why games like Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Rise of nations, Age of empires, Crusader kings, Civilization, Democracy, a song of ice and fire and much more do actually exist. I mean, maybe the current player base do not actually have an interest on games based on intrigues and socializing, but dont you think that the player base could always be expanded?

I dont know the actual numbers but from my personal experience games which limited the social aspect of the mechanics have a male dominated market while games wich improved them tend to have a larger and better mixed player base. I started playing GURPS because it offers MUCH BETTER SOCIAL DYNAMICS than other RPG games, which I consider an opportunity to stand out.

Which is even better, the actual mechanics allow to easily implement an hypothetic system mirroring the Hit Points attribute standing for "Resistance in Social Combat", which I have succesfully done in my games. In the end I think that there are very little things that cannot be done with GURPS and if we were able to come up with them then it would become even greater than it is.

But that is when they are shifting genres and playing straight out strategy games. It is like saying most Gurps players are not interested in camping, or sports, or wood art, or computers, or whatever; they are interested in whatever they are interested in and other interests are often irrelevant to their interest in Gurps.

The question is whether they are interested in playing heads of state in a Gurps game and the answer is probably not. Because RPG's are essentially interactive theater and people come for a different purpose, and to evoke different desires.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

The question is whether they are interested in playing heads of state in a Gurps game and the answer is probably not. Because RPG's are essentially interactive theater and people come for a different purpose, and to evoke different desires.

This is key I think. Were I writing something like a domain-level system I think you'd need to go the way of Mass Combat - create a player-facing system that works for most instances and do your best to cover the broad strokes. I think that trying to do anything more complicated would be problematic.

I'm not saying you couldn't do it, but it would be difficult and trying to synthesize a single one size fits all solution from historical and fictional examples would result in lots of hair pulling.

You'd need a system to design the domain itself, something to simulate exchanges, and then put it all together in a workable whole. That's not insurmountable, but it sure as heck wouldn't be easy. I'd start with a lot of Matt Riggsby's work, Mass Combat (as I said before), City Stats, and Boardrooms & Curia and go from there.