How To Kill a Dragon - Page 2

malchidael · 03-30-2019, 06:41 AM

A barrel of Dwarves, a Halfling Burgler, and a Bard with an ancient arrow could probably manage it. I think I read that somewhere.

larsdangly · 03-30-2019, 09:10 AM

I don't understand the 'white room' arguments that a group of ~10 normal starting characters are a match for a 14 hex dragon. How are they supposed to kill something with 100 ST, 6 points of armor, high DX, and the abilities to fly and burn the average human to a crisp in one blast? Perhaps if it stood there for 5 turns while you repeatedly charge it with halberds or something. But an IQ 24 creature being played by someone who wants to win?

RobW · 03-30-2019, 09:39 AM

Haven't fought any 14 hex dragons yet. But can say 7-hex dragons are disappointingly vulnerable to groups of not-so-powerful individuals.

This is because of the multi-hex creature rules, they can't protect themselves.

Once engaged by a group of 4 or so occupying the side hexes, they are in big trouble. They can't adjust their facing, can't swipe with their tail. They don't engage any of the group. Helpless against the back-and-forth style pole charge attack. Breath is still possible, but targets can dodge (eg about 4d vs 11DX), and this costs costs 5 ST.

hcobb · 03-30-2019, 09:49 AM

Ten of these guys:
ST 12 DX 11 IQ 9 MA 10
Branded Light Crossbow(2d+2, adjDX 14, one shot per turn), Very fine dagger(1d+1/1d+3 HTH)
Crossbow, Missile Weapons III, Knife

Against a flying 14 hex dragon these guys get adjDX 14 -4 for flying +4 for large target adjusted for range. Say final adjDX is 13. Avg damage per turn is 2.5 points so if unmolested the ten of these guys slaughter the dragon in only four turns.

larsdangly · 03-30-2019, 10:14 AM

That's cheating; you gave them magic (and fine) weapons. Also, Weapon Expertise is an IQ 11 talent, so they don't have that. The same crew fighting with standard arms and real talents does an average of 1 point of damage ever couple of turns per figure, and has no real options once engaged. Anyway, why would a being of godlike intelligence hover in range turn after turn in front of a firing squad?

larsdangly · 03-30-2019, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobW

Haven't fought any 14 hex dragons yet. But can say 7-hex dragons are disappointingly vulnerable to groups of not-so-powerful individuals.

This is because of the multi-hex creature rules, they can't protect themselves.

Once engaged by a group of 4 or so occupying the side hexes, they are in big trouble. They can't adjust their facing, can't swipe with their tail. They don't engage any of the group. Helpless against the back-and-forth style pole charge attack. Breath is still possible, but targets can dodge (eg about 4d vs 11DX), and this costs costs 5 ST.

It's true that the engagement rules allow a large group to 'pin' a grounded 7 hex dragon in place. I don't believe the rules specify how that works for a 14 hex dragon. In any event, there is a RAW escape assuming the fight occurs in an open space: disengage UP. A dragon is MA 20 in the air and cannot be engaged by figures on the ground. A dragon's breath attacks from the air without DX penalty (p. 133). Thus, a 7 hex dragon who hovers or repeatedly swoops past has a high probability of killing one figure on the ground per turn and can do so for 8-10 turns before it would become prudent to flee and rest up. Also, a flier can land on another figure, initiating HTH combat from the air, at which point pretty much any 1 hex figure is in trouble, so that's a good option during the mopping up stage of a fight. All of these suggestions are simply using the dragon's abilities to move and attack according to RAW.

Also, depending on the details, the rules for multi hex figures to push back, overrun and trample are all relevant here. You can imagine situations where they will not be very helpful (e.g., engagement all the way around by a figure on every hex side), but if you remember and use these rules they can be used to good effect.

RobW · 03-30-2019, 10:36 AM

Agreed! A dragon with room to fly is a totally different beast from one stuck ITL.

Are flying figures disengaging upwards discussed anywhere? Seems reasonable enough. But could also imagine not an option, at least for nonmagical flight.

larsdangly · 03-30-2019, 10:44 AM

I am not aware of any rule that says you can - or can't - use flight as part of a disengage action. I think it is completely up to the group what they make of this. But I would say the starting point of that negotiation is that the figure has the innate ability to move in the third dimension, so why shouldnt it be able to do so as its 1-hex disengagement action? In any event, if flight is an option a dragon will be hard to force into engagement with a large armed group in the first place. What possible reason could they have to land when they can either win a fight or escape by staying in the air?

Skarg · 03-30-2019, 12:50 PM

I posted the "Disengage Up?" question along with eleven other questions about flying in this thread, but didn't really get any answers except my own.

I think Disengage Up makes sense, but even if it isn't allowed, the rules say fliers can decide whether to fly or not in each movement phase. And a flier decides whether to engage or not. So a dragon could escape engagement even if for whatever reason they were engaged on the ground, by declaring next turn they would fly, and opt not to be engaged. It would be their "take off" turn, so they'd move at 1/2 MA that turn, but otherwise it's just a free state declaration and they can take actions on the turn they take off if they move 1/2 their 1/2 MA or less.

I think dragons aware of enemy archers would also tend to opt to Dodge and to fly at higher altitudes (-1 DX per 10 feet vertical separation).

A missing rule however is how much fliers can change their altitude by each turn.

larsdangly · 03-30-2019, 01:05 PM

That's an interesting take on the problem, though I like the logic of it less than my suggestion re. using the disengage option. I guess it comes down to your interpretation of what it means that engaged figures can shift. If that is taken to mean that they are moving normally but with restrictions on which hexes can be entered, then a flier should be able to 'move normally' to that hex using their flight option, therefore they are flying, therefore they are no longer engaged, therefore they can keep moving as they wish. If you interpret the engaged shift as some sort of special form of restricted movement that keeps you stuck to your foe, then perhaps that option shouldn't be on the table, and the flier should have to wait till their action phase to perform a disengage action like everyone else. The logic of that second choice feels a bit less baroque to me.

03-30-2019, 06:41 AM	#11
malchidael Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Near Milwaukee, WI	Re: How To Kill a Dragon A barrel of Dwarves, a Halfling Burgler, and a Bard with an ancient arrow could probably manage it. I think I read that somewhere.

03-30-2019, 09:10 AM	#12
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: How To Kill a Dragon I don't understand the 'white room' arguments that a group of ~10 normal starting characters are a match for a 14 hex dragon. How are they supposed to kill something with 100 ST, 6 points of armor, high DX, and the abilities to fly and burn the average human to a crisp in one blast? Perhaps if it stood there for 5 turns while you repeatedly charge it with halberds or something. But an IQ 24 creature being played by someone who wants to win?

03-30-2019, 09:39 AM	#13
RobW Join Date: Mar 2018	Re: How To Kill a Dragon Haven't fought any 14 hex dragons yet. But can say 7-hex dragons are disappointingly vulnerable to groups of not-so-powerful individuals. This is because of the multi-hex creature rules, they can't protect themselves. Once engaged by a group of 4 or so occupying the side hexes, they are in big trouble. They can't adjust their facing, can't swipe with their tail. They don't engage any of the group. Helpless against the back-and-forth style pole charge attack. Breath is still possible, but targets can dodge (eg about 4d vs 11DX), and this costs costs 5 ST.

03-30-2019, 09:49 AM	#14
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: How To Kill a Dragon Ten of these guys: ST 12 DX 11 IQ 9 MA 10 Branded Light Crossbow(2d+2, adjDX 14, one shot per turn), Very fine dagger(1d+1/1d+3 HTH) Crossbow, Missile Weapons III, Knife Against a flying 14 hex dragon these guys get adjDX 14 -4 for flying +4 for large target adjusted for range. Say final adjDX is 13. Avg damage per turn is 2.5 points so if unmolested the ten of these guys slaughter the dragon in only four turns. __________________ -HJC Last edited by hcobb; 03-30-2019 at 10:50 AM.

03-30-2019, 10:14 AM	#15
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: How To Kill a Dragon That's cheating; you gave them magic (and fine) weapons. Also, Weapon Expertise is an IQ 11 talent, so they don't have that. The same crew fighting with standard arms and real talents does an average of 1 point of damage ever couple of turns per figure, and has no real options once engaged. Anyway, why would a being of godlike intelligence hover in range turn after turn in front of a firing squad?

03-30-2019, 10:36 AM	#17
RobW Join Date: Mar 2018	Re: How To Kill a Dragon Agreed! A dragon with room to fly is a totally different beast from one stuck ITL. Are flying figures disengaging upwards discussed anywhere? Seems reasonable enough. But could also imagine not an option, at least for nonmagical flight.

03-30-2019, 10:44 AM	#18
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: How To Kill a Dragon I am not aware of any rule that says you can - or can't - use flight as part of a disengage action. I think it is completely up to the group what they make of this. But I would say the starting point of that negotiation is that the figure has the innate ability to move in the third dimension, so why shouldnt it be able to do so as its 1-hex disengagement action? In any event, if flight is an option a dragon will be hard to force into engagement with a large armed group in the first place. What possible reason could they have to land when they can either win a fight or escape by staying in the air?

03-30-2019, 12:50 PM	#19
Skarg Join Date: May 2015	Re: How To Kill a Dragon I posted the "Disengage Up?" question along with eleven other questions about flying in this thread, but didn't really get any answers except my own. I think Disengage Up makes sense, but even if it isn't allowed, the rules say fliers can decide whether to fly or not in each movement phase. And a flier decides whether to engage or not. So a dragon could escape engagement even if for whatever reason they were engaged on the ground, by declaring next turn they would fly, and opt not to be engaged. It would be their "take off" turn, so they'd move at 1/2 MA that turn, but otherwise it's just a free state declaration and they can take actions on the turn they take off if they move 1/2 their 1/2 MA or less. I think dragons aware of enemy archers would also tend to opt to Dodge and to fly at higher altitudes (-1 DX per 10 feet vertical separation). A missing rule however is how much fliers can change their altitude by each turn.

03-30-2019, 01:05 PM	#20
larsdangly Join Date: Dec 2017	Re: How To Kill a Dragon That's an interesting take on the problem, though I like the logic of it less than my suggestion re. using the disengage option. I guess it comes down to your interpretation of what it means that engaged figures can shift. If that is taken to mean that they are moving normally but with restrictions on which hexes can be entered, then a flier should be able to 'move normally' to that hex using their flight option, therefore they are flying, therefore they are no longer engaged, therefore they can keep moving as they wish. If you interpret the engaged shift as some sort of special form of restricted movement that keeps you stuck to your foe, then perhaps that option shouldn't be on the table, and the flier should have to wait till their action phase to perform a disengage action like everyone else. The logic of that second choice feels a bit less baroque to me.