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Old 03-28-2019, 06:48 PM   #1
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Default What do you think the Long Night was like?

Hello Folks,
The subject line says it all. As things begin to wind down from the end days of the Second Imperium, slowly but surely, the Second Imperium begins to sink into a relative dark age due to the lack of trade amongst worlds.

One would expect that worlds whose population are less than modern day towns (110,000 for example was the town I grew up in back in the 1960's and 70's). Such a town might have some manufacturing capabilities, but without access to raw materials (ores, petroleum, etc) its industries would scale back or die out entirely. Without replacement parts for those goods manufactured elsewhere in the United States - its capital investments would eventually grind to a halt.

As I see it, it is sort of like TRAVELLER: THE NEW ERA in the sense that parts begin to wear out and support of technology is at a premium. We don't have the same cause of massive population die outs per se, but I have to ask...

If Medical technology requires vaccines, medical drugs, etc - to maintain its core of medical support, if you cut off that support, it would flag (ie slow down) and become a lower tech medical society over time.

My question then is this:

What population rating would it take to maintain for example, a TL (GURPS Tech this time!) 3 society? TL 4? TL 5 etc.

Clearly, the founding of the Colony in the Americas (such as Plymouth, Boston, New Amsterdam/New York City etc) could be founded and could even avoid sinking too deeply from the parent tech.

So - thoughts? How many class A starports would you think a full sector could have without reigniting trade to "Imperial" Levels, but perhaps maintain a low grade of trade with one or two worlds over time with no more than a handful of starships?
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Old 03-28-2019, 07:01 PM   #2
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Default Re: What do you think the Long Night was like?

The lazy option is 'max TL = population code', probably with an exception that pop-9 and up are uncapped.
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Old 03-28-2019, 07:25 PM   #3
hal
 
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Default Re: What do you think the Long Night was like?

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The lazy option is 'max TL = population code', probably with an exception that pop-9 and up are uncapped.
Day-YUM! That is a sweet possibility. That slurping sound you heard was of me stealing the idea as foundational for what I'd like to do.

At TL 3, we had cities that could reach population values in the region of 10's of thousands. 90% (or thereabouts) were involved in food production. What if we went the route of determining the population NOT involved in food production?

Just tossing out ideas - but your lazy option looks appealing to an extent.
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Old 03-30-2019, 02:03 PM   #4
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Default Re: What do you think the Long Night was like?

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Day-YUM! That is a sweet possibility. That slurping sound you heard was of me stealing the idea as foundational for what I'd like to do.

At TL 3, we had cities that could reach population values in the region of 10's of thousands. 90% (or thereabouts) were involved in food production. What if we went the route of determining the population NOT involved in food production?

Just tossing out ideas - but your lazy option looks appealing to an extent.
Remember many supplements that spoke of the Long Night mentioned that, if they maintained electrical generation, they often maintained their technology. Hydro-dams and similar power sources that are renewable without advanced replacement parts or manufacturing bases, would mean a longer time to build the ecconomic base to a stable level.
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: What do you think the Long Night was like?

Hey Mike,
Thanks for your thoughts. I'll be thinking about what you said and have some thoughts to send back your way.

Part of the problems from where I sit is the fact that much of "things" that have been written about, are all at a remote level. In other words, the authors write of things in an abstract manner without having specifics in front of them to work with.

Case in point - although CT Book 6 SCOUTS was published in 1983, but we largely don't see stellar information being attached to the star systems until 1985 with the Spinward Marches campaign. Yet - much of what we have about the long night stems from books that were written in 1980 (Library A-M for instance).

In all honesty, it would have been madness to try and generate ALL of the stellar data for each of the star systems in the Third Imperium (or first, or second for that matter). Then we have the issue of "lesser races" - humanity that had been seeded by the Ancients, who never discovered the jump drive on their own.

Possibilities for starting settlement dates for any given world range from prehistoric times (Ancients) on up to First Imperium on through modern times of the Third Imperium (prior to the civil war, prior to the virus etc). As a consequence, there was no attention paid to the possibility that populations on M Class stars may very well have died out due to the low energy output of such stars and the inability to maintain large groups of population with food and such. I'd seriously doubt that the Ancients would have settled worlds that were of marginal interest to them and their "pets" (what were humans in those days anyhow???!!!). Vargr are an uplifted species in the sense that they were modified from canine stock and turned into an actual race. With so much left unanswered from the Ancients days, it is hard to conjecture anything about it- and as a result of it, can justify anything that the random die rolls present us. <shrug>

None the less - what is NOT answered with regards to the "Long night is a fable" approach is this:

Let's say you have this "Set" - let's call it a simple circle for now. It is the totality of known space and all of the settled worlds. Draw another circle - but this time, let's make it larger than the initial circle. This is "all of the unknown space and known space within the Galaxy here in this dimension". Thus, that area outside the first circle is unknown. That area inside the circle is known. The area within the first circle might even have a new circle inscribed within that, which we're going to call the First Imperium. Now, everything within that circle are all of the known worlds that were part of the First Imperium. They were ruled by their masters, they were connected by trade, taxation, and possibly even a unified culture (unlike what the Third Imperium would become!). If the whole "Long Night" is a fiction - the question arises...

That circle represents 100% of the First Imperium. By the time of the Third Imperium, it is no longer a full 100% unified and functioning entity, but instead, a fragmented area that lacks unification, lack of a monolithic culture, and certainly a lack of trade/tax flow. So we go from 100% unified 1st imperium to something, which in turn becomes the starting point of the Third Imperium as it attempts to reunify things. In some aspects - despite there being no black wars - wouldn't the dissolution of a unifying culture imply that there would be regressions for those worlds incapable of self-sufficiency? Wouldn't there had to have been a time period in which those worlds - STILL retaining their electricity power generation capabilities - have eventually grown strong enough within the span of only few centuries to reform and take over the former 1st Imperium territory? Year -1776 is credited with the time as the fall of the Second Imperium, despite the fact that the Second Imperium still existed. Sort of the Roman Empire still existing on records, but instead of maintaining its borders, is now starting to shrink.

What shrunk relative to the First Imperium? Did worlds die out? Did worlds go "rogue" telling the Second Imperium "Take your quotas, your laws, and your tax impositions - and put them where the sun don't shine?" Did break away regions come into being? Did the Second Imperium start to suffer a multiple but slow motion fracturing not unlike that of the Civil war that was to tear the Third Imperium apart rapidly in MegaTraveller?

We know that you mine ore from deep within the ground, and we know that ore has to be purified, broken free from the rock - before it can be turned into swords. Yet - few of us could tell you specifically how it is done right? When an author tells us "They mined the ore and created an industrial empire" - we can vaguely understand the HOW of it.

HOW did the Second Imperium fragment? What happened during this break up period? Why did the break up period last so long? How long did it take for the Sylean Federation to go from a federation to an EMPIRE builder? How long did it take to recover all of the First and Second Imperium's territory before it is a mature Third Imperium?

Star Travel isn't about hopping aboard a ship, setting sail on the space ocean and catching the Solar Winds or jump space winds etc - reaching your destination and starting colonies and outposts. It is a logistical effort that would resemble in cost, a minor war. Then those colonies have to repay their initial cost in some fashion, as few people are willing to toss away good money for an altruistic endeavor. Those Colonies then mature at some point in time, take on a character of their own, and desire their own self-determination if at all possible.

More on this in my next post
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Old 03-30-2019, 09:08 PM   #6
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Default Re: What do you think the Long Night was like?

At some point in time (especially over at the Mongoose Traveller Forum (CotI no longer a place I frequent) I believe I asked the question...

What constitutes a world government?

At what point in time will a world be ready for "Membership" such that they have representation at the Moot? What is the status of worlds that are not yet ready for that "label" as a world member - are they protectorates? Are they colonies? Are they resource reservations in the sense that the Third Imperium has laid claim to the world, but not colonized it? If Sternmetal wants to mine ore from a world - can they simply squat on the world, extract resources, and when they're done, either leave behind "resource extraction settlements " (mining camps, logging camps, fishing villages etc) - or take up everything and depopulate the world as they search for a new world to plunder of its resources?

In the end, these are not questions being asked by authors who want to see a coherent whole that is the Third Imperium - the books being written are those the publishers think will sell. If I weren't unemployed, I'd be buying MJ Doughtery's work on Naval life and privateering and all that stuff that he wrote not too long ago. But he's approaching it from the mindset of "What if I were there, what would I see, how would this have to evolve?" (at least it seems that way to me).

I'm not complaining mind you. I would love to see the Third Imperium detailed a bit better so that if Traveller and RPG's in general are still around 20 years from now (by then I should likely be either in a cemetery or a nursing home!) - someone will be able to look at the vast details of publishers who have gone before - and build on that even.

What is the definition of a Citizen? What is the definition of a Subject? How can a Citizen of the Imperium have their life terminated for a religious offense that isn't an offense in the eyes of the Iridium Throne and 99% of the Third Imperium Members? On and on the questions go, with no real answer possible as long as the insistence that worlds have their own sovereign governments holding sway over Imperial culture (let alone the issues of how to have a unified Imperial Culture on all worlds where the government can differ greatly!)

In any event - the "fiction" that things were not at all dark misses the fact that something causes the worlds to fragment from the unified rule, and keeps them fragmented for centuries. THAT is the Dark period. If trade was as strong then as it becomes later - then why didn't the Third Imperium get started earlier from another cluster of worlds who kept their Class A starport designation, their TL A+ infrastructure?

If you have Pocket Empires - I'd like to suggest the following: Create a pocket empire with a total number of worlds equal to 1 (itself). Start with what ever assumptions you wish to start with - then play it as of the year -1776 in say, Deneb's sector. Then, using just the rules from Pocket Empire, track the history of that world over a span of centuries. How long would it take for that single world to act as a nucleus for a new expanding pocket empire?

If there are multiple worlds with star hopping infrastructure that remained intact - using Pocket Empires, how long would it take for them to band together and rape the sector of Deneb? How long would it take for two hard headed cultures to clash heads before one or the other concedes defeat and the victor takes over the defeated world's pocket empire?

WHAT kept the worlds more or less "stuck in stasis" where they didn't expand out and engulf their neighbors?

In the end? I think the questions I'm asking are going to be "Detail oriented" that may be TOO detail oriented (if you get my drift). I asked before - why can't a single world build jump drives, ship them as a UNIT, then have that unit installed at a far away star port capable of installing refits and doing repairs? Why is there even this distinction between class A star ports and Class B starports? Is there some "unobtainium" required to build jump drives that lack of this material dooms a world to being unable to build jump drives even if it can still improve on fusion power plants or medical technology or computer technology etc?

Empire building is a logistical exercise. Mobility is required to engage in that kind of growth. Technology provides for both mobility and the capability for a functional logistical capability. What was it that the worlds lacked in one or both capabilities that had the long night last as long as it did?
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Old 03-30-2019, 09:23 PM   #7
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Default Re: What do you think the Long Night was like?

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Originally Posted by Astromancer View Post
Remember many supplements that spoke of the Long Night mentioned that, if they maintained electrical generation, they often maintained their technology. Hydro-dams and similar power sources that are renewable without advanced replacement parts or manufacturing bases, would mean a longer time to build the ecconomic base to a stable level.
Ok - let's go with this.

Have you ever played Sid Mieir's Civilization game in which you have to learn to do A before you can learn to do B and C, and that before you can do F, you have to learn both A, C, and D along one path, along with A, B and E along another path?

What do we need for a star faring culture and tech level?

Infrastructure: without the machines to make the machines that maintain your current technological level - you simply are at a lower functionality. The theory of power generation is required before you can build the power generation structure. Then you need to be able to build the things that need power.

Knowledge: Without the knowledge, you can't advance from where you are currently.

Culture: without the willingness to adopt new things, the mindset of "Good enough for my father because any deviation from what works, can lead to starvation and death - is good for me" becomes the dominant one. Without a culture's willingness to invest in education, all decisions are based upon "we know this works - don't risk trying something that won't work, we're poor enough as it is!"

Wealth: without the ability to invest in processes that will hopefully work, the society in general is stuck with maintaining status quo instead of incrementally improving on the present so that the future is better than the present.

In any given situation, it would seem that we need a perfect storm of things to permit any given world to improve from its past state into a better future state. Anytime it can happen where things "backslide" we can call it "bad luck" and wait until the next attempt to jump forward arrives.

But, getting back to Civilization the game. Civ IV has this scenario based on the world and 18 starting cultures in which the "new world" is separated from the old world by two vast oceans (ie, oceans that require ships to be able to leave sight of the shore before they can be crossed). It is particularly annoying that in the new world, there are no horses to be had while the Old World has easy access to the resource. Likewise, jump drive resources can limit things greatly. Heavy Metal resources if lacking on a world, can limit its technology infrastructure capacity. All of these things are "abstracted" in terms of Traveller. For many, the answer is "Who freaking cares!"

Me? I look at POCKET EMPIRES and LOVE the game. I look at WORLD TAMER'S HANDBOOK and LOVE the game (wish I could find others who want to play it!). I wish I could run a campaign that uses POCKET EMPIRES and CT's HIGH GUARD. What a game THAT would be. ;)

So, yes, I know what I want is in the minority in a big way. Yes, I don't have the full time to detail the Third Imperium the way I wish I could. And finally, I can't imagine we'll ever see it.

But you guys who read this thread and post ideas to it? Well, it is more than I would have other wise. So - thank you. :)
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Old 03-31-2019, 03:47 AM   #8
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Default Re: What do you think the Long Night was like?

It wasn't the second Imperium, rule of man, call it what you like that fell that began the long night.

It was the final death throws of the Ziru Sirka - the Rule of Man is yet another bit of propaganda from the 'Third' Imperium (metagame wise it was needed to explain the throwaway line in the Spinward Marches supplement that the current Imperium is the third such empire to occupy this region of space).

The train of events is:

ZS doing fine - provincial governors actually hiding the true nature of border conflicts and threats from beyond...
ZS recognising the Vargr are a bigger threat than they thought, planetary and cultural rebellions of subject races...
encounter the Terrans...
war with Terrans hushed up initially, as a result the Terrans have the time to bring their considerable population resources up to the same TL as their opponent...
the Terrans 'win' the final war and take over the seat of government and try to hold the fragmenting ZS from spiralling out of control.

Think about the Terran victory and how they actually achieved it. Did they defeat the full might of the ZS navy? Nope.
Did they, during inter war periods, send agents to learn as much about the Vilani, encourage rebellious feelings amongst ZS subject races, actively recruit disaffected ZS worlds to the cause? Yup.

The Ziru Sirka fell and thousands of worlds let out a breath of relief and started to conduct their own affairs. Some worlds became the hubs of small trading 'pocket empires', others retreated from interstellar affairs, still others would have seen population and technological reduction as peoples migrated to better economies, opportunities and cultures.

The Long Night is a dark age in the sense that there is no longer a single interstellar polity lording it over charted space, but an awful lot of worlds would welcome the two thousand years of independence, prosperity and peace that would be brought to an end by the appearance of the Third Imperium's unification fleet and the offer you can not refuse...
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Old 03-28-2019, 09:26 PM   #9
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Default Re: What do you think the Long Night was like?

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Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
The lazy option is 'max TL = population code', probably with an exception that pop-9 and up are uncapped.
Why uncapped? I could fully believe that tech levels above a certain point require the material, economic, and demographic support of an interstellar trade network, and are unsustainable on an isolated, single world.
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Old 03-28-2019, 10:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: What do you think the Long Night was like?

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Why uncapped?
We have enough canon of solo worlds or very small groups of worlds that exceed TL A. The most extreme examples would be Darrian (TL-G, total pop including colonies not likely over B) and Samiqys (reached limited TL-H without being interstellar capable, so presumably not above pop-A before they wiped themselves out).

If you're using GURPS TL instead of Traveller TL you can probably keep the mapping.
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