Rapid Fire bonus and Rcl

[Erling]

AFAIK, in reality main purpose of automatic/burst fire is not hitting the target multiple times, but rather aid for hitting it at least once. In GURPS this concept is reflected by Rapid Fire mechanics, where to-hit bonus is determined by the number of shots fired. However, GURPS approach towards automatic and burst fire assumes that overall Rapid Fire bonus isn't affected by weapon's controllability and mass. Instead, these variable affect chance to hit multiple times, which is expressed by Rcl stat.

Historically full-power rifle cartridges, like 7.62x51, where replaced by intermediate cartridges, like 5.56x45, due to many factors. Among them was the controllability issue, as soldiers couldn't enjoy full benefits of rapid fire using full-power cartidges - shots scattered and spreaded, making it harder to hit the target with burst of full-auto.

Just to name a GURPS example, let's take M16 and FN FAL. Let's assume both models have RoF 9, which converts to +2 Rapid Fire bonus. M16 has Rcl 2, while FN FAL has Rcl 3. That is, rapid fire will provide equal bonus with both rifles. Only chance to hit multiple times is affected by Rcl.

What I suggest as a house rule is modifying Rapid Fire bonus appropriate to Rcl stat. It can be done in several ways:

1. Rcl 2: +1 for 3-4 shots, +2 for 5-8, +3 for 9-12, +4 for 13-16...
Rcl 3: unchanged Basic Set rules.
Rcl 4: 0 for 2-8 shots, +1 for 9-12, +2 for 13-16...

This approach would also encourage using standard pistol cartridges known for their controllability, like 9x19. Currently they are significantly inferior to cartridges like .40 S&W, especially when using AP ammo. Furthermore, this approach would reinforce Shoot Till Down concept (TS16) while shooting pistols, as currently RoF 3 doesn't give any bonus, which often makes shooting at RoF 3 pointless.

2. Simplified approach: just lower Rapid Fire bonus by 1 while shooting any weapon with Rcl 3+.

I don't mean that basic rules are bad or something, but I'm curious if it's possible and playable to reflect full-auto/burst controllability in such way. Opinions invited.

UPD: My bad: .40 S&W has Rcl 2 as well, so introducing my house rule won't make things easier for 9x19 Para.

[Gef]

Hi Erling,

I've never fired an automatic weapon in real life, but I see your point. Looking at it from a game-mechanics point of view, trying to keep it simple, why not modify rapid fire bonus by Rcl+1, period?

[Tomsdad]

I think part of this is the Rcl Stat in GURPS actually means several different things including the combined controllable of the round in combination with the gun itself.

Which is why 7.62 NATO in the FN Fal rifle has Rcl 3, but in a LMG thats 2-3x as heavy it has Rcl 2 (but of course that LMG will have a higher MInST because it's heavier)

Or a more direct comparison would be say the BAR to the Garand.


(basically the point is if you want to fire 7.62 or 30.06 out of weapon held like a rifle and have it be as controllable as a 5.56 assault rifle it need to be considerably heavier than most battle rifles were. Which comes with its own downsides when being shot like rifle).

Ultimately the way GURPS condenses multiple rounds being fired into one roll to hit does throw up some wrinkles. But then rolling to hit with every bullet is a pain in the behind!

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Erling

.... Furthermore, this approach would reinforce Shoot Till Down concept (TS16) while shooting pistols, as currently RoF 3 doesn't give any bonus, which often makes shooting at RoF 3 pointless.

....

Just quickly to say, even if there is system to hit bonus for shooting ROF3, there is still a significant bonus in that you can hit more than once if your accurate/good enough.

The best shot in the world will only hit with one round at ROF1, and given the unlikeliness of one shot instantly ending of a threat, more is more.

I may be wrong but I think in real life shoot to down tends to happen when the shorter is reasonable sure of their ability to hit with multiple rounds as that is the intended goal (which with a pistol probably means close range).

I.e I don't think the main point of shoot lots rounds when "shooting til down" is in order to increase their chance to hit at all.


This however raises a point I think in real life rapid fire / FA fire is used in very different ways at different ranges and set ups. e.g shoot till down at close range and supressive fire at long ranges for example.

(but that said I'm sure it's not hard and fast categories that never crossover either!)

[Erling]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I think part of this is the Rcl Stat in GURPS actually means several different things including the combined controllable of the round in combination with gun itself

Which is why 7.62 NATO in the FN Fal rifle has Rcl 3, but in a LMG that 2-3x as heavy it has Rcl 2 (but of course that LMG will have a higher MInST because it's heavier)

Or a more direct comparison would be say the BAR to the Garand.

(basically the point is if you want to fire 7.62 or 30.06 out of weapon held like rifle and have it be as controllable as a 5.56 assault rifle it need to be considerably heavier than most battle rifles were).

Sure. That's why I suggest using "effective" Rcl (derived from both weapon and cartridge) in my proposed house rule.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

This however raises a point I think in real life rapid fire / FA fire is used in very different ways at different ranges and set ups. e.g shoot till down at close range and supressive fire at long ranges for example.

(but that said I'm sure it's not hard and fast categories that never crossover either!)

That's definitely true, but I believe that aiding to hit at least once is among purposes of rapid fire.

[McAllister]

To Tomsdad's point, I've always wanted RCL to interact with ST somehow. In Shadowrun, being a ten-foot tall troll gives you an advantage in dealing with recoil. I'd like to see something for that in GURPS, or is there something I'm missing?

Anyway, I like this concept. Reduce RoF bonus by 1 for RCL 4+, increase it by 1 for RCL 2, increase it by 2 for RCL 1, and add a bit of granularity for small bursts with low RCL. Definitely makes RCL more important. Are there any ways to reduce a gun's RCL outside of using different rounds?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by McAllister

To Tomsdad's point, I've always wanted RCL to interact with ST somehow. In Shadowrun, being a ten-foot tall troll gives you an advantage in dealing with recoil. I'd like to see something for that in GURPS, or is there something I'm missing?

Anyway, I like this concept. Reduce RoF bonus by 1 for RCL 4+, increase it by 1 for RCL 2, increase it by 2 for RCL 1, and add a bit of granularity for small bursts with low RCL. Definitely makes RCL more important. Are there any ways to reduce a gun's RCL outside of using different rounds?

I have a tweak that allows people who exceed MinST to get a bonus to hit just for the purposes of negating the effects of Rcl as follows:

For every 2* your ST exceeds MinST you get one extra success for deciding if you hit with subsequent rounds. I.e it doesn't make you more likely to hit over all but it makes it more likely to hit more than once.


This I find also further promotes two handed pistol fire and braced rifle fire for people who's Basic ST already meets the MinST requirements. I.e is good for double taps with 9mm etc




*for greater effect make this a 1:1 relationship

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Erling

Sure. That's why I suggest using "effective" Rcl (derived from both weapon and cartridge) in my proposed house rule.

That's kind of my point, Rcl is already that in the system,

Originally Posted by Erling

That's definitely true, but I believe that aiding to hit at least once is among purposes of rapid fire.

Oh I agree absolutely increasing the chance of hitting the target is always valid. It's just different contexts add different things to that.


So say for example the "shoot till down" scenario:

Your shooting at a target that represents an immediate threat and your absolute highest priority is to end all possibility of that threat as quickly as you possibly can. So you keep shooting rounds into your target until they recognisably go "down".

(of course that last is a subjective value judgement involving lots of factors many of which are unknown in a high speed/adrenaline situation. Either way and "down" is not actually the same as "threat has ended" so for many reasons "shoot til down" often becomes "shoot till empty, assess threat while reloading, decide weather or not to keep firing")


But that set up requires it be in particular context i.e. short range where A you can successfully hit with multiple rounds, and B make such instant assessments.




Now take long range supressive fire. Say you are firing an assault rifle in FA at a squad of soldiers at 600 yards. Now in that scenario in most combat situations hitting individual targets is going to be more case of luck than judgement. Your not likely going to know for sure the actual effect you having on individual targets, so forget about making those split second reassessments as per above*. So the tangential effects of keeping them pinned down becomes more important than actual bullets hitting bodies. Because those are the ones you more reliably going to knowingly achieve.

Now obviously in both cases an actual increased likelihood of hitting the individual target with more bullets is a good thing, but see how the different factors in play in each scenario places a different onus on doing so


*which is why I really like the spotting, tracer and walking the burst rules in Tactical shooting, as they play up the difference between shooting at something and knowing what the ongoing result of that is.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by McAllister

To Tomsdad's point, I've always wanted RCL to interact with ST somehow. In Shadowrun, being a ten-foot tall troll gives you an advantage in dealing with recoil. I'd like to see something for that in GURPS, or is there something I'm missing?

Yes, Shadowrun's rules are balls and have nothing to do with reality.

The best answer for "What Bonus Should Really High ST give versus Rcl?" is to count the Troll as always being Braced when firing (I think the recommended house rule was 'ST 5 higher than minimum', though you can flavor to taste). Further Bracing gives no benefit as a good portion of the Rcl stat comes from the weapon's tolerances and how it's parts inherently move when fired.

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Yes, Shadowrun's rules are balls and have nothing to do with reality.

The best answer for "What Bonus Should Really High ST give versus Rcl?" is to count the Troll as always being Braced when firing (I think the recommended house rule was 'ST 5 higher than minimum', though you can flavor to taste). Further Bracing gives no benefit as a good portion of the Rcl stat comes from the weapon's tolerances and how it's parts inherently move when fired.

Haha, I've always suspected Shadowrun's rules are balls. The first bullet in a burst deals somewhere between 4 and 9 damage, and each subsequent bullet that hits adds an additional 1? What nonsense. But it is a fun setting.

Honestly, "automatically braced when ST exceeds minimum by 5" makes sense, and it's plenty to model the kind of advantage I'm thinking of. EDIT: actually, bracing doesn't do what I thought it did, and provides no bonus to unaimed shots. So I think I'm more likely to be happy with Tomsdad's rule where ST in excess of the minimum makes shots past the first more likely to connect.