GURPS Powers: Divine Favor

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Of course. I was just wondering if there was a simple way to do it, which you provided.


The other way one might wish to modify Divine Favor is to have it be for a god with a limited portfolio, e.g. a fire god, instead of for a monotheistic omnipotent god. And the in-between case, where the Divine Favor is with an entire pantheon of gods (or two entire panthons for a Norse priest), but where the character has an especially good (or bad!) relationship with one (or a few) members of the pantheon, so that he's - somehow - better off getting those kinds of miracles, than other kinds.

Any suggestions for how to do that?

While you can probably do lots of complicated explicit rules for this, in most cases I think that you could use the rules-as-written and use the portfolio of the god as a factor in evaluating the first reaction roll modifier (with a bonus for requests central to the portfolio and a penalty to those tangential to it), and the relationship of the petitioner to the particular god as a guide to the modifier in the second modifier.

For extreme cases of sharply-limited portfolios, where the Divine Favor relates only to a single limited-domain diety, a -20% limitation (essentially equivalent to Aspected) might be appropriate.

You probably also want to define portfolio-appropriate prayers rather than using generic ones (both to use as learned prayers and references for freeform ones.)

[Jerander]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Of course. I was just wondering if there was a simple way to do it, which you provided.


The other way one might wish to modify Divine Favor is to have it be for a god with a limited portfolio, e.g. a fire god, instead of for a monotheistic omnipotent god. And the in-between case, where the Divine Favor is with an entire pantheon of gods (or two entire panthons for a Norse priest), but where the character has an especially good (or bad!) relationship with one (or a few) members of the pantheon, so that he's - somehow - better off getting those kinds of miracles, than other kinds.

Any suggestions for how to do that? From RPK or from others...?

Some it can perhaps be done by simply Limiting the 5 CP/level bonus to the reaction roll, in the sidebar on page 5, but as usual I'm quite unhappy with Aspected -20%. I'm buying Divine Favor 8 with the entire Aeir and Vanir pantheons, and on top of that I pay 4 CP/lvl for a better reaction roll from Loki (i.e. when petitioning for anything that falls under one of his portfolios), when instead I could pay 5 CP/lvl for a reaction roll bonus regardless of which god I petition. Uh... guess which of those two options I'l be choosing every single time.

Likewise, how should divine animosity play in? Say Sif unhappy with me because I'm a fan of Loki, so petitions to Sif result in a reaction roll penalty. A reaction roll penalty for a very minor god could be abusive, but it is a valid question to ask (a serious answer might be -1 CP for a -3 penalty to Sif reaction rolls). And it could instead be a major god, like Thor (for the same reasons). So a plus to Loki costs... how much? And a penalty to Thor...?

And what if gods have overlapping portfolios? Is the character free to choose which god to petition, in such cases?


And how to modify Divine Favor if it is for a one limited portfolio god? Would -20% or so be reasonable for a typical multiple-portfolio god, as seen in historical Indo-European mythologies, and -40% for a god from D&D-land with one portfolio only?

One idea might be to adapt the "One College Only" limitation from Magery, for limited miracle portfolios, or limited number of gods from a pantheon.

From there, maybe apply "Hard To Use" or "Reliable" to those modifiers to limit/enhance the limitations to get the different penalities/bonuses to reaction rolls for each god.

Not sure it'd work, but it's something to look at.

EDIT: Thaumatology, I believe, has rules for a limited number of colleges as well.

Or there's the Accessibility limitation. Compare the % of prayers available through the limited portfolio (either through god(s) of pantheon worshipped or limited aspect of the god(s) worshipped) to the table in Powers.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

(. . .) And the in-between case, where the Divine Favor is with an entire pantheon of gods (or two entire panthons for a Norse priest) (. . .) I'm buying Divine Favor 8 with the entire Aeir and Vanir pantheons

I wouldn't regard Aesir and Vanir as two different pantheons in the Norse world, but as a division of gods in a single pantheon that portrays a duality, like the Greek differentiation between Uranic and cthonic. "Polytheistic cultures" often had complex structures, wich afterwards were extremely streamlined with the advent of "monotheism". Nonetheless, concerning multiple pantheons:

Originally Posted by demonsbane

Think about "the whole divine pantheon" as a compartmentalized equivalent of "the One God" (1).


(1) According to this, having "multiple pantheons" in a given world or setting a la AD&D Deities and Demigods makes no sense.

Given that a whole "Polytheistic Pantheon" is equivalent to the absolute and infinite -in the same way than a "Monotheistic One God"-, there's no room for more than "one" absoluteness/infinitude. But it's possible, however, to add "multiple pantheons" to campaigns featuring transcultural relationships, that is to say, with PCs acting in areas and cultures that are affected by two different religions and their corresponding pantheons.

Some of the combinations can be:

• "Monotheistic One God" versus "Polytheistic Pantheon"
• "Monotheistic One God" versus multiple "Polytheistic Pantheons"
• "Polytheistic Pantheon" versus "Polytheistic Pantheon"
• "Monotheistic One God" versus another "Monotheistic One God"
• "Polytheistic Pantheon" versus "Polytheistic Pantheons"

There are several different approaches to these conflicts or to these situations in which there seem to be more than "a true God", more than a "divine pantheon", or any mix of that. Two of them, very summarized, could be:

• A "monotheistic One God" or "whole Polytheistic Pantheon" is truly divine, and the other(s) isn't but a host of intermediate, "astral spirits", or better said, subtle beings or entities posing as "gods" and being worshiped in that way by people unable or unwilling to discern their psychic, intermediate (non divine) nature: these things are "idols". This could have been the case of ancient Israel's "monotheistic One God" versus the "Baals and Astartes", etc ("Polytheistic Pantheon") of their neighbors.
  In this case, the "false gods" could provide to their worshipers a very inferior power in contrast with the power bestowed by the "true god/s", or none at all (see Elijah against the prophets of Baal, 1 Kings 18). The "pantheon of the false gods" could have been, in the past, a proper frame and vehicle for the truly divine, but afterwards it could have been abandoned or degenerated, remaining in the world as an empty shell for use and abuse of hosts of dubious entities. This is the phenomenon of dead religions that still offer the appearance of life.
  
• Two "monotheistic Gods", or two "whole Polytheistic Pantheons" are in outwardly conflict among themselves, but really "they" are the same underlying unnamed divinity under different names and manifestations adapted to each different culture and religion. This can result in scenarios like Julius Caesar (earlier a Flamen Dialis or Priest of Jupiter for a brief time) "translating" the names of gods of the Gauls into Roman gods. In this case, despite the appearance of two "Polytheistic Pantheons" in conflict, the underlying divinity expresses itself outwardly through the forms of different gods existing in both Pantheons for carrying the seeming clashes of interests and agendas.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by cmdicely

While you can probably do lots of complicated explicit rules for this, in most cases I think that you could use the rules-as-written and use the portfolio of the god as a factor in evaluating the first reaction roll modifier (with a bonus for requests central to the portfolio and a penalty to those tangential to it), and the relationship of the petitioner to the particular god as a guide to the modifier in the second modifier.

Well, yes and no. In particular, I'm leery of granting bonuses: as a rule of thumb, a player is going to focus on the deity from whom the paragon is most likely going to get a response, and will tend to ask for miracles along the lines of what that deity is most likely to grant; so that is what the player should be paying for when he buys Divine Favor. He should then suffer a penalty to the petition roll when petitioning other deities in the pantheon, and he should suffer a reaction penalty when and if he attempts to petition a given deity for something outside of his/her/its portfolio.

If you think that a paragon who can draw on the favor of two gods is in a markedly better position than the one who's limited to a single divine patron, let him buy Divine Favor for the second deity as an Alternate Power to the Divine Favor you purchased for the first. You still pay the listed price for Learned Prayers, regardless of which deity is providing them; but you must meet the prerequisites set by whichever deity is granting the Learned Prayer in question.

And suddenly I'm thinking of the hypothetical GURPS In Nomine 2e, but replacing "deity" with "Superior". In particular, "Attunements" would be IN-speak for Learned Prayers.

Again, pardon the necro, I've finally gotten a chance to use this book, building a DF Dungeon Saint who is also a con-man.

What would you say would be the Enhancement required to allow Charisma to give bonuses to the Petition Roll? Either equivalent to Religious Ranks bonuses or as a straight up +1/lvl bonus?

I was thinking Cosmic +200%, but to also allow the Charisma to sway any Indomitable people/monsters/gods the character might talk to.