Hey tough guy!

[TippetsTX]

Pulling some of the houserule-focused discussion from the main forum over to here, what are some alternative ideas for the TOUGHNESS talents?

Like David (https://forums.sjgames.com/showpost....34&postcount=3) part of my problem is with the TOUGHNESS moniker... to me the talent should represent the whole spectrum of defensive training, from hit avoidance to 'rolling with a punch' to body hardening techniques. In addition, I wanted the unarmored barbarian or martial artist to be viable archetypes so I decided to expand on the concept.

In my game, then, TOUGHNESS is replaced by three increasingly potent talents... DEFENSIVE TRAINING, DEFENSIVE EXPERTISE and DEFENSIVE MASTERY. To avoid possible abuse, however, they only partially stack with actual armor (which is also expanded in my game).

DEFENSIVE TRAINING - Stops 1 hit (does not stack w/ armor)
DEFENSIVE EXPERTISE - Stops 2 additional hits (3 total), but only 1 point stacks w/ armor
DEFENSIVE MASTERY - Stops 3 more hits (6 total), but only 3 points stack w/ armor

All three will fully stack w/ magical protection or other talent-based techniques that grant similar defenses.

See also: https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=187178

[TippetsTX]

Another idea I'm playing with is an extention of a figure's size-based advantages...

What if hex-size also provided a baseline 'toughness' score? I've been experimenting with hex-size /2 (rounded down) = hits stopped. So a giant and a centaur both take 1 hit off by default, while a 14-hex dragon deducts 7 hits from attacks.

What is interesting is that this principle actually holds true (or comes really close) for a decent percentage of creatures as-written. I also like the idea that it represents a 'base' that I can improve on. For example, I wanted my 14-hex dragons to be a bit more formidable so their armored scales actually stop 10 hits (base 7 + 3 bonus).

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

In my game, then, TOUGHNESS is replaced by three increasingly potent talents... DEFENSIVE TRAINING, DEFENSIVE EXPERTISE and DEFENSIVE MASTERY.

Rather than expanding Toughness (Defensive Training) to stop three hits at a third level, I've adopted some additional ST-based talents that give benefits other than damage reduction, such as increasing the threshold for injury-induced penalties and making it harder for wounds to knock a figure down.

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Another idea I'm playing with is an extention of a figure's size-based advantages...

What if hex-size also provided a baseline 'toughness' score? I've been experimenting with hex-size /2 (rounded down) = hits stopped. So a giant and a centaur both take 1 hit off by default, while a 14-hex dragon deducts 7 hits from attacks.

What is interesting is that this principle actually holds true (or comes really close) for a decent percentage of creatures as-written. I also like the idea that it represents a 'base' that I can improve on. For example, I wanted my 14-hex dragons to be a bit more formidable so their armored scales actually stop 10 hits (base 7 + 3 bonus).

That's an interesting idea that provides a useful rule of thumb for creating new creatures.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Rather than expanding Toughness (Defensive Training) to stop three hits at a third level, I've adopted some additional ST-based talents that give benefits other than damage reduction, such as increasing the threshold for injury-induced penalties and making it harder for wounds to knock a figure down.

I'll take both!
;)

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Like David (https://forums.sjgames.com/showpost....34&postcount=3) part of my problem is with the TOUGHNESS moniker... to me the talent should represent the whole spectrum of defensive training, from hit avoidance to 'rolling with a punch' to body hardening techniques.
In my game, then, TOUGHNESS is replaced by three increasingly potent talents... DEFENSIVE TRAINING, DEFENSIVE EXPERTISE and DEFENSIVE MASTERY.

Isn't this more or less how the talent works now? Except you have three levels instead of two, and I'm guessing the prerequisite is based on ST+DX+IQ rather than ST and a little IQ. It doesn't seem to be a natural way to represent the difference between rolling with a punch and shrugging off a blow.

In principle I would like to see a difference in effect between DX- and ST-based defences, like DX-based defences work well against slower attackers, but I'm not sure how.

[JohnPaulB]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

Isn't this more or less how the talent works now? Except you have three levels instead of two, and I'm guessing the prerequisite is based on ST+DX+IQ rather than ST and a little IQ. It doesn't seem to be a natural way to represent the difference between rolling with a punch and shrugging off a blow.

In principle I would like to see a difference in effect between DX- and ST-based defences, like DX-based defences work well against slower attackers, but I'm not sure how.

I don't see that Tippets has any restriction on minimum ST. Also, what IQ levels are these talents?

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

Isn't this more or less how the talent works now? Except you have three levels instead of two, and I'm guessing the prerequisite is based on ST+DX+IQ rather than ST and a little IQ. It doesn't seem to be a natural way to represent the difference between rolling with a punch and shrugging off a blow.

In principle I would like to see a difference in effect between DX- and ST-based defences, like DX-based defences work well against slower attackers, but I'm not sure how.

My version is more intended to represent the general result of battle experience... lessons learned while enrolled in the 'school of hard-knocks' and not any particular ST or DX-based technique (though, in reality, it must be a combination of both).

TBH, I'm not sure I see the value in separating the two approaches, but there's no rule against creating more narrowly focused talents that expand on either the 'toughness' or 'evasion' aspects. These could stack on the baseline of my talents.

For example, a new martial art talent called UNFETTERED DEFENSE might stop an additional 2 hits (stacking with my talents above), but only if the figure is unarmed and unarmored. DEFENSIVE EXPERTISE could be a prerequisite.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

I don't see that Tippets has any restriction on minimum ST. Also, what IQ levels are these talents?

Apologies. I don't use IQ levels so I often forget to convert my talents back to TFT's default framework. In my game, the talents don't have a ST prerequisite, but the character must achieve the appropriate tier to access them.

DEFENSIVE TRAINING is a 'Novice' tier talent, thus available to any starting character. DEFENSIVE EXPERTISE is available at the 'Veteran' tier (TAP 37 or higher) while DEFENSIVE MASTERY is only available to 'Legendary' tier characters (over 43 TAP).

If I were to apply these talents to RAW, they would probably be IQ 9 (1), IQ 11 (2) and IQ 13 (3) respectively.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by JohnPaulB

I don't see that Tippets has any restriction on minimum ST. Also, what IQ levels are these talents?

I meant that RAW has (harsh) ST and (easier) IQ requirements, and this proposal's requirements differ.

[hcobb]

Toughness is much easier and cheaper in Legacy (than Classic), but still doesn't attract much player attention. Hence my buff to layering with armor:

https://www.hcobb.com/tft/house_rules.html#IQ9Talents