Damage reduction for feathers

[Mike_H]

I recently picked up GURPS Dinosaurs for third edition. I thought would try to update a number of species due to recent discoveries (i.e. feathers) but I have found nothing on damage reduction for feathers.

I know it is very hard to penetrate the body of a turkey if you shoot it with a gun or a bow (I'm talking real life hunting). So I thought that the same should be considered true for feathered dinosaurs, especially true for those of the late cretaceous.

From reading the book, all the DR is 1 for all dinosaurs, but I feel that it should be higher, at least a 2 to compensate for feathers. Another issue is that size effects this as well in living birds. A chicken is easier to puncture than a turkey is. Is there any way of showing this in the statistics?

[ericthered]

Its worth noting that you bring up turkeys, as opposed to albatross, ostriches, or eagles. Turkeys are "armored" by thick layers of feathers, and its not just about size: its about the way the animal is built.

That said, putting a thick mane of feathers on a T-rex to protect it from rivals' bites is awesome.

You should only stick feathers on Theropods and maybe sauropods. Everything else is not very likely, and not shown to be universal on the two I listed.

Its really up to you to give numbers. Unless someone has some stats on how bullets penetrate feathers (I wouldn't put it past this forum).

[Flyndaran]

I strongly doubt large therapods had use for such primarily thermoregulatory structures. And I have zero idea why non-avian dinosaurs would have any feathers. I've never heard of any fossil evidence for that. They're always discovering new things, so if anyone has a link, I'd love to read it.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I strongly doubt large therapods had use for such primarily thermoregulatory structures. And I have zero idea why non-avian dinosaurs would have any feathers. I've never heard of any fossil evidence for that. They're always discovering new things, so if anyone has a link, I'd love to read it.

From what I've seen, there is a lot of arguing over it. That said, Dakotaraptor. Its a dromaeosaurid, and those are typically smaller, but this thing is an 18 footer, so its up in the category of "large".

This article talks about feathers 150 million years old (over twice as long as birds have been around) and this article talks about feathers on a basal tyrannosaurid (much smaller and earlier than T-rex). I don't think I can tell the folks who claim only a small number of dinosaurs had them and certainly not the big ones are wrong, but I don't think I can say the folks who say sauropods might have had feathers are wrong. But unless you count a 18 foot raptor* as "Avian", there are certainly feathered non-avian dinosaurs.

*yes, yes, the terrible claw kind, not some monstrous eagle.

[Mike_H]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I strongly doubt large therapods had use for such primarily thermoregulatory structures. And I have zero idea why non-avian dinosaurs would have any feathers. I've never heard of any fossil evidence for that. They're always discovering new things, so if anyone has a link, I'd love to read it.

Actually, there was a discovery on of a tail segment of a nonavian coelurasaur therapod with primitive feathers just last year. Thermoregulation would be needed, especially for smaller dinosaurs. As one gets larger in size, the easier it is to retain heat. That is why we don't see many huge mammals with thick coats of fur. So saurapods wouldn't have much, if any, in the way plumage. This was actually inteded with the medium to small dinosaurs such as the raptors and those of similar size range.

Also, you have to get the idea of modern feathers out of your head when dealing with dinosaurs. What we know of as feathers are highly evolved structures. There are primitive feathers that look and act more like hair than anything, which is what that discovery kind of shows. Here is a national geographic article on the find. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...ma-cretaceous/

[Mike_H]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Its worth noting that you bring up turkeys, as opposed to albatross, ostriches, or eagles. Turkeys are "armored" by thick layers of feathers, and its not just about size: its about the way the animal is built.

That said, putting a thick mane of feathers on a T-rex to protect it from rivals' bites is awesome.

You should only stick feathers on Theropods and maybe sauropods. Everything else is not very likely, and not shown to be universal on the two I listed.

Its really up to you to give numbers. Unless someone has some stats on how bullets penetrate feathers (I wouldn't put it past this forum).

Yes, and that is why I think many of the small to medium sized avian dinosaurs from the cretaceous would have had thick quilled feathers like turkeys. That's the main reason I asked this question.

[Mathulhu]

Trey the Explainer has a series of videos on paleontology including some on dinosaur feathers. I haven't done any additional research, but he states his sources in the descriptions for the videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGAixpQcqdU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM5JN__15-g

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Mike_H

Actually, there was a discovery on of a tail segment of a nonavian coelurasaur therapod with primitive feathers just last year. Thermoregulation would be needed, especially for smaller dinosaurs. As one gets larger in size, the easier it is to retain heat. That is why we don't see many huge mammals with thick coats of fur. So saurapods wouldn't have much, if any, in the way plumage. This was actually inteded with the medium to small dinosaurs such as the raptors and those of similar size range.

Also, you have to get the idea of modern feathers out of your head when dealing with dinosaurs. What we know of as feathers are highly evolved structures. There are primitive feathers that look and act more like hair than anything, which is what that discovery kind of shows. Here is a national geographic article on the find. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...ma-cretaceous/

I get that many ancient pelages would be more like primitive kiwi bird feathers than advanced eagle plumage.
What I don't think has been proven, as far as I know, is when feathers first evolved at all. Whether it was before or after the sauropod-therapod split.
Even if both groups had some members with some coverage, that doesn't mean big ones were packed with enough to act as major Gurps DR like OP started this thread wondering about.

Edit: ooh, so new evidence that primitive feathers were pre-split. Learn something new everyday, if I'm lucky that is.

[Bruno]

You don't necessarily need to be "packed" with feathers. Cassowaries are degenerate avians, but while their main feathers have very much gone the way of Kiwi Bird "hair", their flight feathers on the wing (the little stubby chicken wing remaining) are six great big long quills.

There's nothing left of those feathers except for the stiff keratin pen - all the fluffy vanes have vanished. And further, the pens are much thicker and heavier than a flying bird would ever have, what with Cassowaries being very distant from a flying ancestor.

I've never seen any significant suggestion that the pen of an avian feather exists in non-avians, but it's a thing.


Otherwise, peacocks are an excellent example of why feathers exist. Just about every other bird with a crest or other display provides more evidence: feathers are a great way to advertise. If humans can ditch fur everywhere but keep our crests, I don't see why a T-Rex couldn't ditch its temperature feathers but keep a mane/ruff of feathers with a combined use for defense and display.

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by Bruno

If humans can ditch fur everywhere but keep our crests, I don't see why a T-Rex couldn't ditch its temperature feathers but keep a mane/ruff of feathers with a combined use for defense and display.

And a T-rex with a mohawk would look cool, whereas raptors covered in fluffy feathers just look goofy.