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Old 09-14-2016, 09:28 PM   #1
VariousRen
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Default [Mass Combat] Cost of raising logisitics forces

My DM and I have been looking through Mass Combat in preparation for the next few sessions which will involve finding and raising troops. The logistics costs seem unusually large, costing 5k for every thousand the troops cost to maintain. Because most troops have a maintain cost equal to 1/5 their raise cost, the cost to raise the logistics forces is equal to the cost to raise the unit itself. In the swamp (where some of the fighting will take place) the maintenance cost is doubled, so the logistics force will cost twice as much as the unit itself to raise.

This all seemed a little high, and I wanted to check that we aren't missing anything important about how the logistics force is raised and functions. Additionally, are mercenaries subject to logistics concerns since they are "maintained" properly but instead paid in cash?
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Old 09-15-2016, 03:14 PM   #2
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cost of raising logisitics forces

Bumping this back up, because it seems like it might be a common question and my forum searches didn't turn up anything on the topic.

Just confirming that the cost to raise logistics forces for an element should be expected to be equal to or more than the cost of raising the element itself.
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Old 09-15-2016, 03:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cost of raising logisitics forces

The logistics forces are somewhat abstract. So it presumably includes not only some number of supply clerks, but vehicles (trucks, rail, DC-3s and C-141s), as well as constructing supply dumps, and depots.

Also perhaps improving infrastructure (say, the corduroying of roads so popular in the American Civil War, or strengthening bridges along a route for heavy vehicles), though some of that might be counted as part of the maintenance cost. So while maybe 40% of the forces are non-combat forces*, the cost of those forces can be quite high.

The 2016 US DoD budget breaks down into 20% for procurement (that is, buying equipment), compared to 25% for personnel (pay and benefits), 39% for operations and maintenance, and 13% for R&D. So, just raising the combat troops is not necessarily a large percentage of the total budget. Mass Combat deals in generalities, but having the logistics cost more than the combat equipment doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

You know the old military saying: Amateurs think about tactics, but professionals think about logistics.

--
* the number varies by time period and army. Here's a nice survey of the US Army "tooth to tail" ratio from WW I to the present day, though focused more on numbers of troops than dollars.
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Old 09-15-2016, 05:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cost of raising logisitics forces

The ratio of teeth to tail varies over time but in general successful armies do usually have more tail than teeth.
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Old 09-15-2016, 06:57 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cost of raising logisitics forces

That's reasonable for armies traveling in enemy territory or poorly supported wilderness, but most of our game takes place inside of a country with well established cities and towns. I wonder if there should be an innate amount of logistics strength provided by towns and cities that already exist and are allied, and reduced cost for raising logistics forces inside civilized non-war lands.
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Old 09-20-2016, 08:51 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cost of raising logisitics forces

Necro'ing this because I've done some math and things definitely don't seem right as written in the logistics rules. It turns out it's cheaper to not maintain a force at all and replace it as the people starve than it is to provide maintenance for them.

Consider a force made out of 5 medium infantry. Each unit has a raise cost of 30k and a maintain cost of 6k. Our full force will cost 150k to raise and 30k to maintain each month. So far so good.

If we maintain our force at full combat readiness they will need a logistics force with an LS of 30. Raising a logistics force costs 5k per LS, so raising the logistics unit will cost 150k to raise and 15k to maintain. Doubling our raising cost and adding 50% to our maintenance. Total cost for the army is 300k raise and 45k monthly.

Now instead we provide no logistics forces at all. Page 14 of mass combat gives us the effects of no maintenance. Halve TS of every element and 5% desertion per month. We'll need 10 units to equal the effectiveness of the 5 before. To replace the deserting troops we must pay a percentage of the raise cost, 5% per month of 30k is 1.5k each. Total cost to raise the force is 300k, and 15k to maintain.

By not maintaining our troops at all we save 30k a month, don't have a logistics force to worry about defending in a battle, and have 10 elements ready to go if we decide we need them and provide maintenance again. The problem gets even worse if operating in an area with higher maintenance costs like a swamp.

Obviously there would be plenty of in game ramifications that a DM could apply to stop this from happening, disloyal troops, lack of recruits, and so on. It does point to something being very wrong with the logistics rules in Mass Combat though. Are there any suggestions or alternatives from people who have used these rules in the past to provide more reasonable logistics costs?
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Old 09-20-2016, 08:55 AM   #7
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cost of raising logisitics forces

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Originally Posted by VariousRen View Post
Necro'ing this because I've done some math and things definitely don't seem right as written in the logistics rules. It turns out it's cheaper to not maintain a force at all and replace it as the people starve than it is to provide maintenance for them.
In real life of course, you would soon run out of men if you tried that. Unless you were Russia, China or India.
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Old 09-20-2016, 09:25 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cost of raising logisitics forces

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In real life of course, you would soon run out of men if you tried that. Unless you were Russia, China or India.
Or your logistics force would by necessity be replaced by a roughly as expensive commissar force, with the responsibility of keeping your soldiers pointing at your enemies. An unpaid soldier will desert, but an unpaid army can quickly decide to become a military junta, at your expense.
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Old 09-20-2016, 09:51 AM   #9
VariousRen
 
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cost of raising logisitics forces

Of course such an arrangement would never actually work, I was only pointing it out because it doesn't pass my sanity check. Supplying troops properly should cost substantially less than just letting people go unpaid, desert or starve, then finding replacements.

If it's confirmed that I'm not making some math mistake calculating the cost of the logistics forces, I'll be writing up my own logistics rules that take into account distances to the nearest friendly city, infrastructure, and an elements natural ability to arrange for their own supplies.
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Old 09-20-2016, 10:46 AM   #10
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Default Re: [Mass Combat] Cost of raising logisitics forces

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Originally Posted by VariousRen View Post
That's reasonable for armies traveling in enemy territory or poorly supported wilderness, but most of our game takes place inside of a country with well established cities and towns. I wonder if there should be an innate amount of logistics strength provided by towns and cities that already exist and are allied, and reduced cost for raising logistics forces inside civilized non-war lands.
Would probably be cultural - if you had institutions like the Roman tradition of a corn tax payable directly to the military or the Feudal right of maintenance ... but you could equally have an area with no useful military infrastructure to speak of where the army would be limited to whatever it could buy on the open market.

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The ratio of teeth to tail varies over time but in general successful armies do usually have more tail than teeth.
There's a roster out there somewhere for a force sent out from Regensburg in the 1400s which, IIRC consists of about 140 fighting men and another hundred or so civilians (or at least, men listed by their profession as things like lance makers, butchers and cooks) ... unless I've misunderstood it and it's 140 men with about a hundred tradesmen under arms and the balance made up by professional soldiers.
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