Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-13-2014, 06:06 AM   #11
Peter V. Dell'Orto
Fightin' Round the World
 
Peter V. Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Default Re: [MA] All-Out Attack option - Reckless Charge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Benj View Post
Move and Attack gives you a really bad attack and still diminishes your Defences. All-Out Attack gives you some great attack options and lets you move more than you would with a regular attack.
Move and Attack is just the old "Wild Swing" rule - basically, trying to take a crack at someone while on the run. That's why it has such a low chance to hit, tosses aside some of your defenses, and making Retreat impossible. It's movement with a side order of striking. Use it when you really need the extra steps and have no other choice, or just need to take a swing as you run at or past someone and you don't otherwise need to Retreat or Parry with that weapon.

All-Out Attack is throwing aside all of your defenses for frenzied attacking, and the logic is (AFAIK) that you can get in some extra steps if you don't care about protecting yourself, either. Use this when the attack is the priority, you absolutely don't need your defenses, and when those are both true and you need a couple extra steps to get there.

Move and Attack is significantly inferior to All-Out Attack in lethality, and Attack in accuracy and safety, and just Moving to get places and still be able to defend yourself. It's handy when you really do need that swing at the beginning, middle, or end of the move.

All of that assumes melee - Move and Attack is a move better option with ranged weapons . . . at least potentially.
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD
My Author Page
My S&C Blog
My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog
"You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev
Peter V. Dell'Orto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2014, 06:50 AM   #12
The Benj
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Platform Zero, Sydney, Australia
Default Re: [MA] All-Out Attack option - Reckless Charge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
All of that assumes melee - Move and Attack is a move better option with ranged weapons . . . at least potentially.
Certainly. No cap and a penalty that can be as small as -2 is a much better deal than that for melee. Plus, the prohibition against parrying is much less likely to be an issue.
The Benj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2014, 11:06 AM   #13
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: [MA] All-Out Attack option - Reckless Charge?

In melee combat, Move and Attack is Move with an attack thrown in as an afterthought; the focus is on the Move. By contrast, All-Out Attack focuses on the attack and throws in some extra movement as a bennie. Both are attacks on the run, but they weight the move portion and the attack portion differently. I do agree that it might be fairer to bring the defensive effects into line . . . "All-Out Attack means no defense" is an old rule from 1985, and might bear reexamination.
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 07:55 AM   #14
Peter V. Dell'Orto
Fightin' Round the World
 
Peter V. Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Default Re: [MA] All-Out Attack option - Reckless Charge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
"All-Out Attack means no defense" is an old rule from 1985, and might bear reexamination.
My opinion is that Committed Attack is "all out attack but with defenses."

If AOA got some defenses, then we'd just need a level of maneuver that is really no defenses, for when people say "I totally ignore my defenses and concentrate 100% on my attack." Committed Attack already covers the "but I still want a chance to defend" ground IMO.
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD
My Author Page
My S&C Blog
My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog
"You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev
Peter V. Dell'Orto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 10:16 AM   #15
Kromm
GURPS Line Editor
 
Kromm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
Default Re: [MA] All-Out Attack option - Reckless Charge?

I don't disagree. I'm simply saying that "no defenses" is tricky to weigh, because it's -(arbitrary) instead of -1, -2, -3, . . . That's an oddity next to almost all other maneuvers, which prescribe fixed modifiers to attack, defense, and damage rolls. The only thing that somewhat resembles it is the skill cap of 9 on Move and Attack, which also bothers people. Anyway, that's really just me mumbling aloud about a different maneuver system wherein you allocate resources to attack, damage, defense, and movement, which is one of those stupid designer quirks. ;)
__________________
Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com>
GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games
My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News]
Kromm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 11:30 AM   #16
gilbertocarlos
 
gilbertocarlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil
Default Re: [MA] All-Out Attack option - Reckless Charge?

As a houserule, I give -4 on defenses after AOA, the usage of AOA didn't increase, since -4 is very bad still, but it made telegraphic attacks against the barbarian rarer, at least when he is using a shield.
__________________
I've revised the Low Tech weapons table:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=112532
gilbertocarlos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 01:01 PM   #17
Peter V. Dell'Orto
Fightin' Round the World
 
Peter V. Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Default Re: [MA] All-Out Attack option - Reckless Charge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
As a houserule, I give -4 on defenses after AOA, the usage of AOA didn't increase, since -4 is very bad still, but it made telegraphic attacks against the barbarian rarer, at least when he is using a shield.
I have guys with a base Parry in the high teens. A -4 is kind of a mild impediment to defending.
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD
My Author Page
My S&C Blog
My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog
"You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev
Peter V. Dell'Orto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-15-2014, 09:42 PM   #18
Xplo
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Default Re: [MA] All-Out Attack option - Reckless Charge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
I have guys with a base Parry in the high teens. A -4 is kind of a mild impediment to defending.
It's not that mild if their opponents can use Deceptive Attacks and still stand a decent chance of hitting, and if they can't, well, the guy with Weaponating 24+ should probably be slaughtering them anyway.
Xplo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2014, 12:27 AM   #19
gilbertocarlos
 
gilbertocarlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Caxias do Sul, Brazil
Default Re: [MA] All-Out Attack option - Reckless Charge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter V. Dell'Orto View Post
I have guys with a base Parry in the high teens. A -4 is kind of a mild impediment to defending.
If -4 is a kind impediment, they could instead use ripostes that give -4 on the enemy defences(more with the counterattack technique).

Or, they are at least sacrificing the best defence. And dodge, if they're attacked 5 times in one turn, he will have a hard time parrying all those attacks.
__________________
I've revised the Low Tech weapons table:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=112532
gilbertocarlos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2014, 12:07 PM   #20
Peter V. Dell'Orto
Fightin' Round the World
 
Peter V. Dell'Orto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New Jersey
Default Re: [MA] All-Out Attack option - Reckless Charge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xplo View Post
It's not that mild if their opponents can use Deceptive Attacks and still stand a decent chance of hitting, and if they can't, well, the guy with Weaponating 24+ should probably be slaughtering them anyway.
True, and true. But "No defense" is extremely severe. "-4" is less and less severe the better you are. It's a more and more useful potential tradeoff the higher your base defenses go, and the less attackers you face.

-4 is only an impediment, really, if it also comes with these:

- cannot retreat
- cannot also use the attacking weapon to defend

Even then, it's doable for a sufficiently well-protected fighter. On its own, -4 isn't a worry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertocarlos View Post
If -4 is a kind impediment, they could instead use ripostes that give -4 on the enemy defences(more with the counterattack technique).

Or, they are at least sacrificing the best defence. And dodge, if they're attacked 5 times in one turn, he will have a hard time parrying all those attacks.
The problem is -4 doesn't scale. It doesn't come with problems that can't be covered with raw skill and advantages - like the two I mentioned above - it's always going to get better and better as an option the better and better your defenses get.

And then it still leaves open people who will reasonably say, "I want to give up all of my defenses - even the ones at -4 - for just a little more offense." No truly "no defenses" AOA leaves a gap there.

Same as if AOD still let you attack at a penalty - you could reasonable argue that if you didn't attack at all it would be better still for your defenses.

So I just think "AOA with defenses allowed" is Committed Attack. It's what Committed Attack is for.
__________________
Peter V. Dell'Orto
aka Toadkiller_Dog or TKD
My Author Page
My S&C Blog
My Dungeon Fantasy Game Blog
"You fall onto five death checks." - Andy Dokachev
Peter V. Dell'Orto is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
all-out attack, martial arts, move and attack

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.