Unarmed Parry with "Off Hand"

[GoblynByte]

I don't have the books with me to investigate, but it may be a case where the phrase "with weapon" is the defining quality. You can parry without penalty with your left hand but using a tool (weapon) in your off hand gets that off-hand penalty. Unless of course the point of training with that weapon is as an off-hand parrying weapon (as is the case with main gauche).

That may be completely false. I'm just spit ballin' there. ;)

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by GoblynByte

I don't have the books with me to investigate, but it may be a case where the phrase "with weapon" is the defining quality. You can parry without penalty with your left hand but using a tool (weapon) in your off hand gets that off-hand penalty.

But according to B 376, the rule applies whether there is a weapon or not. I quote:

"You parry with your "off" hand...or with a weapon held in it, at -4 to skill. Since Parry is calculated off half skill, this gives -2 to Parry"

So under what circumstances do you get that -2 for an off handed parry when you aren't parrying with a weapon?

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

So what sense do you make of the quote on Basic p.376 where it lists a -2 for parrying with the off hand "or the weapon held in it"? Are you reading that as a mistake?

Yes, I think this is a plain mistake.
AFAIK, Judo/Karate/Brawling have always granted 2 parries, at no penalty.

Only if you use "Harsh realism..." you should penalize parries with the off hand.

EDIT: here's a post by Kromm that mentions the subject:
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...8&postcount=11

Originally Posted by Kromm

[*]Such skills allow two parries -- one per hand -- before penalties for repeated parries show up.
<snip>
He'd parry the first two blows at 15 using either hand, the second two at 13, and the last two at 11.

[chris1982]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

So under what circumstances do you get that -2 for an off handed parry when you aren't parrying with a weapon?

More or less only when using the harsh realism rules...

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by chris1982

More or less only when using the harsh realism rules...

...but those only came in Martial Arts.

Which seems to make the comment on B. 376 a mistake, as Lupo suggests.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by chris1982

More or less only when using the harsh realism rules...

Yes, that's what they are for. Basically it says "You know that rule we specifically overruled for unarmed skills? Don't make that exception if you use these optional rules."

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

Yes, that's what they are for. Basically it says "You know that rule we specifically overruled for unarmed skills? Don't make that exception if you use these optional rules."

And B. 376 is an error? Or does it have an application somewhere?

It says "You parry with your "off" hand...or with a weapon held in it, at -4 to skill. Since Parry is calculated off half skill, this gives -2 to Parry"

Is this a mistake or are there circumstances where you get that -2 for an off handed parry when you aren't parrying with a weapon? (Harsh realism situations presumably don't count because B. 376 is giving you the general rules, not optional alternatives)

Either "You parry with your "off" hand...or with a weapon held in it, at -4 to skill. Since Parry is calculated off half skill, this gives -2 to Parry" is a mistake or there is some time, without invoking optional rules, when you parry with your off hand (but not with a weapon) at -2. If there is such a time, when is it?

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

And B. 376 is an error? Or does it have an application somewhere?

AFAIK, when you parry off-handed without a weapon, not using a skill that eliminates that penalty. Your default DX-based parry, for example, can be tried off-hand. That would suffer the penalty.

Again, AFAIK.

[Greg 1]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

AFAIK, when you parry off-handed without a weapon, not using a skill that eliminates that penalty. Your default DX-based parry, for example, can be tried off-hand. That would suffer the penalty.

Again, AFAIK.

Aha! So the situation described on B. 376 might arise if a combatant had no points in any unarmed combat skill and went for a parry with the off hand. Yes that does make sense.

Thank you!

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by Greg 1

And B. 376 is an error? Or does it have an application somewhere?

It might have an application for unskilled, unarmed parries. So if you lack Brawling/Karate, you parry with DX/2 + 3. This could be penalized for the "off hand" but I am not sure.

(EDIT: sorry I didn't realized Peter just said the same thing)