06-11-2012, 12:24 AM | #11 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?
I think its clear that there are traits that involve not being able to do all or some of the tasks associated with one or more attributes, but I think for the most part these are best addressed by named advantages with specific descriptions, most of which won't simply be prohibiting all of the tasks for one attribute and doing nothing else, so I'm not convinced that "Attribute N/A" is a particularly useful notation.
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06-11-2012, 12:25 AM | #12 | |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Japan
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Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?
An interesting point in the current GURPS rules is that lack of characteristics is not always "Attribute 0". Lack of load-bearing ability is represented by ST 0 and lack of intelligence by IQ 0, but lack of physical action is not DX 0. See pp. 118-120 of Thaumatology, which first introduced the rules for designing objects with no moving parts (as opposed to robots, vehicles, etc.) as PCs.
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06-11-2012, 02:01 AM | #13 |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?
My basic problem with it is that 0 attributes are serious disadvantages that come with a whole mess of baggage (ST 0 means you can't manipulate anything, IQ 0 forbids anything involving mentality or volition at all, and so on). They clearly aren't 0 point traits and equivalent to a score of 10.
Able has a sapient human ally with IQ 10 [0], Betsy has an non-sentient giant robot Ally with IQ N/A [0], and Charlie has a sentient but non-sapient giant wasp familiar with IQ 1 [-80].
Why does Betsy have to pay more points than either of the others for a less functional Ally? Last edited by sir_pudding; 06-11-2012 at 02:22 AM. |
06-11-2012, 02:12 AM | #14 | |
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oregon
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Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?
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Also, Attribute N/A probably wouldn't be a purchasable "level" the way Attribute 0 or 1 is, but rather a result of other traits (probably disadvantages) possessed by the character. So a computer AI that has no physical form, and thus has ST N/A, might get points back for that disadvantage, but not for selling down ST (which feels to me like a point crock). This is distinct from a bacteria with effectively ST 0, since it does have a physical form, and gets full points for how vulnerable it is (though its tiny SM makes it very difficult to find). Last edited by vierasmarius; 06-11-2012 at 02:22 AM. |
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06-11-2012, 08:35 AM | #15 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?
Attribute N/A definitely feels like a metatrait to me. This approach would make it not exactly a houserule per çe, and would definitely make the GMs assumptions about what it implies transparent.
One of the reasons why I'm not comfortable with saying things like "Well if you're Sessile (Portable) and have No Manipulators your DX score is irrelevant is that some GURPS rules do float around attributes, and a not insignificant number of "purely mental" abilities end up using DX to one extent or another (Telekinesis is particularly blatant but Innate Attack is DX based, whether they're eyeball lasers, pure beams of force from your forehead, or exploding playing cards). This may not be relevant to a particular character, but it is relevant to the system as a whole. I prefer to work from the general case to the specific exceptions, rather than the other way around. Sometimes One Thing, Sometimes Another suggests that they aren't synonymous; varying impact suggests that there should be varying point costs; the two combined suggests we need a separate module to cover the second idea. At which point a meta-trait seems simplest.
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06-11-2012, 08:46 AM | #16 | ||
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?
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06-11-2012, 08:49 AM | #17 |
GURPS FAQ Keeper
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyïv, Ukraine
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Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?
I'm really uncomfortable with the idea of Attributes as Nullable Types. I've had enough puzzling out the issues related to nullability of FP. It also reminds me of the silly issue with D&D Vampire Barbarians:
Vampires have a Constitution (think GURPS HT+maxHP) score of N/A or '-'. Barbarian abilities rely on Con. Thus, vampire barbarians base all those abilities on Charisma. Argh. |
06-11-2012, 10:01 AM | #18 | |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Japan
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Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?
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06-11-2012, 10:20 AM | #19 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Japan
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Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?
I don't think so. According to the definition on p. B16, Will 0 doesn't mean lack of volition -- it's just a measurement of "ability to withstand psychological stress (brainwashing, fear, hypnotism, interrogation, seduction, torture, etc.)" and "resistance to supernatural attacks (magic, psionics, etc.)". An IQ 10 human can sell down his Will for 5 points/Will and get Will 0 [-50] and 50 points (although reducing Will by more than 4 requires the GM's permission). He'll certainly have much trouble, e.g., withdrawing from Addiction and resisting Mind-Reading spell, but he's still a human with average intelligence, not a "thing".
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06-11-2012, 03:24 PM | #20 | |
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Attribute N/A, Useful concept or not?
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I think the limits on attributes are meant to be the limits of human variability. Non-humans or super-humans can violate them with GM's permission, but I don't think that "normals" can. |
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attribute n/a, house rules |
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