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Old 12-15-2009, 06:43 PM   #11
Corinus
 
Join Date: May 2008
Default Re: So how does backstabbing actually work?

Makes sense. It would be helpful in future printings to say "immediately" on the card then. Due to the confusion, we've been treating it as an ability that adds an extra die roll for whichever side the Thief chooses, rolled in the Thief's colors, since that's when all the D6's are rolled in combat.

Thanks.
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Old 12-15-2009, 11:53 PM   #12
pk2317
 
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Default Re: So how does backstabbing actually work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MunchkinMan View Post
I can see arguments to both sides, but realistically, this is one of those situations where we're talking about combat. Their should be ample opportunity for people to deal with the consequences of each individual action used to aid the Munchkin(s) or the Monster(s), and this is one of those actions which provides combat consequences. Roll the "damage" roll immediately after a successful backstab attempt has been made.

Once everyone's rolling combat dice, you're no longer allowed to change the combat (except by playing cards that change the rolls, of course), so by rolling the backstab damage with those dice, it creates a situation where no one can react to the backstab damage. Though that may seem logical in real life, it does not jibe with Munchkin Quest's fair play logic.
If this is an official answer (and it seems like it is), then I'm in no way attempting to discredit that. However, this seems (to me) to be not quite what was intended. Because Munchkin Quest specifically altered the regular rules for combat by adding in a randomized factor, being the dice rolls. You are specifically not supposed to know *for sure* if you can beat the monster one level below you, because of this randomizing factor. So the situation already exists that there is a "damage" (the monster rolling a 6 to your 1) that cannot be reacted to. As such, it is up to the player(s) in combat to take into account *all* possible die rolls and the outcomes thereof.

I remember we had a discussion a while back about how the Thief Backstab wasn't considered to be a "combat roll" (and therefore not subject to room benefits/disadvantages). But it is, still, a dice roll, on either side of the combat. The rules have this to say about the results of the combat:
Quote:
Results of Combat
Compare your (Level + Bonuses + Dice + Thrown Items (see Thrown Items, p. 17)) to the monster’s (Level + Bonuses + Dice). If your total beats the monster’s total, you win. The monsters win ties.

If you have a Helper, his Level and Bonuses count on your side, and he also gets to roll a die. See Helpers in Combat, p. 10.

There are ways for other players to help you or help the monsters. See Non-Helpers in Combat, p. 10.
So, in my opinion (not trying to argue an official ruling), it seems to say that all dice rolls are added in at the end. Unless you're counting the Thief's Backstab as a "bonus" for the monster, instead of a die roll, which I suppose is possible, but (to me) a bit awkward. It would make more sense (to me) to just have it be a dice roll, on the side of the monsters, rolled when the rest of the monsters' dice are rolled, and taken into account beforehand by the player(s) in combat.

If, in fact, it is meant to be immediate, then I agree with Corinus that it would be very helpful to say so on future printings of the card. Or could this be considered errata?
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Old 12-16-2009, 05:10 AM   #13
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Default Re: So how does backstabbing actually work?

Given that anything Andrew Hackard or I say is an official answer unless one of us says it isn't, yes, it's an official answer. Also, by stating an opposite opinion and offering some form of logical reasoning for your opposition, you are arguing against the official ruling. I'm sorry, but you can't hedge around that by saying you're not trying to. It's like "no offense intended," which always precedes a statement intended to offend. If you don't want to argue against an official ruling, the way to do that is to not write a decent sized post offering you're reasons for why the official ruling is mistaken. . .

Regardless, this is a bonus, given to one side or the other, by the Thief. Just because a die roll is involved does not mean that the die has to be rolled with the dice normally rolled as part of combat. If the wording of the card needs to be changed, it would be to reflect that more than anything else.
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Old 12-16-2009, 02:14 PM   #14
pk2317
 
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Default Re: So how does backstabbing actually work?

So is there a "proper" way to bring this up? I know you and Andrew do an awful lot of work here for us on the Munchkin forums, and I really do appreciate it. I respect both of you highly, and I don't want to give the appearance that I don't.

That being said, there are times (like this one) where, to me, the logical reading that I have from the cards and rules in question differs from your interpretation. I would like the opportunity to present my point of view, and explain it to the best of my ability, and I don't know if that's something that is frowned upon, or if there is a better way to do that, or what.

If this is something that would be better handled via PM, I'd definitely be willing to do that, if the mods prefer. And again I reiterate, I hold all the mods in the highest respect, and I really don't want to do anything "the wrong way". Thank you very much for your time and assistance.
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: So how does backstabbing actually work?

I don't mind you asking questions and presenting your argument, until Andrew or I say it's time to lock it down and move on. You won't get in trouble for presenting an opinion or asking for clarification. You will get in trouble by continuing to press after we've made it extremely clear that the decision is final and there is no more room for debate.
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:35 PM   #16
Andrew Hackard
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Default Re: So how does backstabbing actually work?

It's also worth noting that at times, how things are done "in the wild" can change our minds. For instance, the intent of the developer was that the d10 had to be rolled simultaneously with the other combat dice to use the Fighter's and Wizard's d10 powers. But I didn't play it that way and a lot of other people didn't seem to play it that way, and now the unofficial official ruling is that the d10 should be rolled as soon as you decide to invoke the power, regardless of class.
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:36 AM   #17
pk2317
 
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Default Re: So how does backstabbing actually work?

Thanks for clearing that up. Another thing I thought of on the same lines are the items and such that let you roll an extra die, like the colored Rings against monsters with that color base. I realize that these are items, and not one-shot cards, but if there are any DxM cards that give the same functionality, would they need to be resolved instantly as well? Since it affects combat?
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: So how does backstabbing actually work?

The Bane rings are specifically meant to give you an extra combat die, so that gets rolled with your other combat die/ce.
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Old 02-18-2012, 07:14 AM   #19
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Default Re: So how does backstabbing actually work?

So, if the ten sided dice roll is more than your level then your Backstab fails and you cannot try again until the next player's turn?
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