[Infinite Worlds] Welsh America

[Ed the Coastie]

POD: 1170 -- Prince Madog ab Owain Gwynedd, his brother Rhirid, and his followers establish a colony in and around Mobile Bay. In the course of their explorations, they encounter the nascent Mississippian Mound-building culture and provide enough of a stimulus to jump-start it to (potentially) TL2.

Now the big question -- assuming that the Americas remain in near-isolation and things in Europe remain pretty much the same for the next 300 years until Colombus makes his famous voyage, how do things develop? I specified near-isolation because I am thinking of allowing the Templars an American sanctuary...

Anyone want to take a stab at this?

[Mr Frost]

Originally Posted by Ed the Coastie

POD: 1170 -- Prince Madog ab Owain Gwynedd, his brother Rhirid, and his followers establish a colony in and around Mobile Bay. In the course of their explorations, they encounter the nascent Mississippian Mound-building culture and provide enough of a stimulus to jump-start it to (potentially) TL2.

Now the big question -- assuming that the Americas remain in near-isolation and things in Europe remain pretty much the same for the next 300 years until Colombus makes his famous voyage, how do things develop? I specified near-isolation because I am thinking of allowing the Templars an American sanctuary...

Anyone want to take a stab at this?

He would have to take with him a good number of people whom were not too closely related {inbreeding being a big problem in such matters} .
I would say about 1000 taffys total and quite a bit of luck would be needed .

That said , over 300 years , 1000 healthy colonists could multiply into a supprisingly large and thriving "New Wales" under the right circumstances .
Getting the ships to carry that many that far {they would have to start with atleast twice that many as they would lose atleast 50% to scurvy and other hazards} as well as horses , goods , livestock , food and fresh water ... I think it could be done if they had someone brilliant enough and again , a fair dose of luck , but it would have been very difficult to pull off .

Their arrival would begin the plagues that devistated the American Native populations , thus living space would be much easier to obtain . If they were particularly smart and empathic they could preserve one or several native cultures {or forge new ones out of many such cultures} by convincing multiple tribes and nations depopulated and greatly weakened by the plagues to put asside rivalries and combine ala the Six Nations {would take some clever thinking , insight and slick diplomacy , but it could be done} and with these as allies and greatly strengthened militarily by increasing their tech level {TL 3 would be possible with effort over 300 years} would be a force to be reconed with and have a fighting chance of becoming and remaining the dominant culture in North America {or atleast much of it as became the U.S.A.} .


I doubt this Welsh Colony would be able to present a serious challange to European Colonial efforts to subdue them over time without serious Native support {the 300 years head start to develop immunities to European diseases and recover population numbers would give the Natives a better chance to resist on their own however . The Norse colonies brought neither the numbers notr the exposure to sufficient infection to create this effect and were too short lived} .
Also , I think the Welsh colony would need to accept some change in their own cultures {even some reversion to older Welsh cultural practices} . I can imagine them being changed much the way The Greek and Makedonian settlers of the Diotchi State of Bactria were by taking in elements of Indian , Persian and Steppe nomad cultures and incorporating them into their own culture to create a society better suited to prospering in that part of the world .
If they got over those 300 years a second and third wave of settlers somehow it would improve the odds of surviving and prospering greatly .
The Templars wouldn't add much to the gene pool nor population numbers , but would bring a very potent military boost {they were considered to be the acme and pinacle of knightly prowess} which would allow the colony to expand thus gaining access to more resources and land {which would do much to maintain the population growth rate neccessary for the colony to be a real contender when the rest of Europe catches up with them .


If their numbers beging at no less than 500 and preferably 1000 , maintain a steady population growth rate of 3-3.5% P/A and don't suffer any serious losses to plagues or war they could just manage to reach the same population as Britain {England , Wales and Scotland combined} around the time of Columbus though would probably be a fair bit less {say 5 million , which would make them twice as populous as modern day Wales , no more than 10 million would be realistic} . Add in some half breed Welsh/Indians and some allied/client Indian nations and it is concievable they might control a nice empire along the North American Atlantic coast that might stretch from modern Florida to New York and produce a supprisingly large number of very good singers .
Optimistic , yes , but stranger things have happened .

[Dangerious P. Cats]

The early arrival of European diseases would help native American Empires survive the assault of the Spanish a few hundred years later, provided their populations recovered enough.

[Razgovory]

Why Mobile bay? That sounds like an odd place to start a colony. You'd have to sail around Florida to get there. I'm not sure if the area is good for cereal crops either...

[Anders]

Originally Posted by Dangerious P. Cats

The early arrival of European diseases would help native American Empires survive the assault of the Spanish a few hundred years later, provided their populations recovered enough.

This would indeed be a big if. I would argue that even if the Europeans had been nice as lambs, much of the Indian population would have been wiped out by diseases. Perhaps not the historical 95%, but 90% or so... still pretty bad.

The introduction of large domesticated animals could make a huge difference. These animals produce fertilizers, labor, fiber, milk and meat. For anyone who is interested in this, I recommend J. Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Mr Frost

If they were particularly smart and empathic they could preserve one or several native cultures {or forge new ones out of many such cultures} by convincing multiple tribes and nations depopulated and greatly weakened by the plagues to put asside rivalries and combine ala the Six Nations .

Unlikely though ... it was largely the inability of the Welsh nation to unite and stay united that lead to their conquest. When unified - as under Llwelyn Fawr for example - they were too much trouble to conquer, but their inheritance system broke up united states and tended to foster conflict. It would require quite a leap of imagination for them to both completely alter their culture and persuade others to adopt it.

[Ed the Coastie]

Originally Posted by Razgovory

Why Mobile bay? That sounds like an odd place to start a colony. You'd have to sail around Florida to get there. I'm not sure if the area is good for cereal crops either...

According to legend, Madoc and his followers (numbers of which vary, ranging from 500 to 1300) landed in the vicinity of Mobile Bay and worked their way up the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers, gradually becoming assimilated into the local native populations.

The setting I have in mind is pretty much "Destiny Backward" (Infinite Worlds, p97) -- I am envisioning a medieval-ish Welsh civilization along the Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio and Tennessee river valleys, with a holdout Norse civilization in New England and around the Great Lakes and a scattering of Templar holdings here and there. Nice medieval feel to the whole place...perhaps something happened to Europe to forestall further exploration of the Americas.

I don't know yet if Madoc brought horses with him in this alternate...if he did, and assuming they survived, then I can have horse-mounted nomads on the Great Plains.

I also haven't gotten around the whole virgin-field epidemic thing...I want to minimize that somehow. (I'm gonna have to reread Dale Cozort's American Indian Victories for ideas.)

I'm also open to suggestions as to what I should call the place...I don't really want to use Markland, and am currently leaning towards Tir Afon ("River Land").

[Ed the Coastie]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Unlikely though ... it was largely the inability of the Welsh nation to unite and stay united that lead to their conquest. When unified - as under Llwelyn Fawr for example - they were too much trouble to conquer, but their inheritance system broke up united states and tended to foster conflict. It would require quite a leap of imagination for them to both completely alter their culture and persuade others to adopt it.

Supposedly, one of the reasons that Madoc left was because he was fed up with the constant internecine warfare that so plagued his people. His followers were supposed to have been of like mind.

I figure that Madoc is good for at least a couple or three generations of stability and prosperity (nothing succeeds like success) before things start fragmenting.

[Razgovory]

Originally Posted by Ed the Coastie

According to legend, Madoc and his followers (numbers of which vary, ranging from 500 to 1300) landed in the vicinity of Mobile Bay and worked their way up the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers, gradually becoming assimilated into the local native populations.

The setting I have in mind is pretty much "Destiny Backward" (Infinite Worlds, p97) -- I am envisioning a medieval-ish Welsh civilization along the Mississippi, Missouri, Ohio and Tennessee river valleys, with a holdout Norse civilization in New England and around the Great Lakes and a scattering of Templar holdings here and there. Nice medieval feel to the whole place...perhaps something happened to Europe to forestall further exploration of the Americas.

I don't know yet if Madoc brought horses with him in this alternate...if he did, and assuming they survived, then I can have horse-mounted nomads on the Great Plains.

I also haven't gotten around the whole virgin-field epidemic thing...I want to minimize that somehow. (I'm gonna have to reread Dale Cozort's American Indian Victories for ideas.)

I'm also open to suggestions as to what I should call the place...I don't really want to use Markland, and am currently leaning towards Tir Afon ("River Land").

Huh. Well that's cool. Sounds similar to the Roma aeterna but with Welsh instead of Romans.

[Cernig]

Some backgrounders on Madoc in America here and here.

You might be better positting a situation where the Mandan tribe that Madoc's survivors eventually settled with and integrated into took more wholeheartedly to medieval Cymric Celtic culture. That gives a large and powerful tribe or alliance of tribes (by conquest) of ethnic indians with a medieval TL, possibly with a caste structure where those rare few that show the fair skin, hair and eyes of Welsh heritage are accorded greater status. It removes the problems of a sufficiently large Welsh population and the epidemics. It also llets you play with the mixture of native and Celtic Christian/pagan warrior cultures, faiths etc. to get something really unique.

Regards, C

PS, according to legend Madoc named his new land Pen Gwyn. I think I prefer your own suggestion.