Making peace...Infinity and Centrum

[Mgellis]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I suppose though the reason why I'm hostile to it is because it corrupts both universes. It makes Infinity and Centrum totally inconsequential, and it makes Sylea's Imperium pretty much worthless to it, since they can now build a far larger and more easily accessible empire and have no real reason to pay attention to their own universe.

That's a reasonable objection. I was mostly enjoying the idea of Centrum and Homeline eating some humble pie when they finally meet someone who is so powerful as to be totally underwhelmed by them. Not evil or even all that dangerous as long as people behave respectfully. Just someone who is able to remind them they are not the big fish they thought they were. Homeline and Centrum both strike me as a little bit on the smug side. They could use some shaking up. But you're right. Once the Imperium shows up, Homeline and Centrum might seem inconsequential. It could wreck the feel of the campaign.

Going back to the original question...what could end the war? One of the following...

1) Victory for Centrum (they send Homeline to some other Quanta where they're not a problem anymore)

2) Victory for Homeline (they figure out what Centrum is trying to do, get frantic about it, and do something ugly because they now think that their survival might be at stake--and it could be, too; the Centrum plan might knock them into another Quantum or it might just make them wink out entirely!)

3) Centrum "wins" and loses--they push enough Echoes out of Quantum 6, but it doesn't do what they thought it would do...instead, it creates some horrifying Ontoclysm that sends spasms of reality quakes across several quanta--when the dust clears, a lot of worlds are changed, and a lot of worlds are just gone, and one side (or both) is wrecked so badly it is no longer able to fight.

4) Someone else shows up or gets powerful enough that it changes the dynamic between Centrum and Homeline; they might sign a peace treaty to fight a common enemy (Centrum, if they ever got a real taste of Reich-5, might decide that Homeline isn't such a bad neighbor), or they at least have to court some powerful third player (or fourth or fifth or whatever) in the parachronic game of diplomacy.

Anyway, that's how I would do it.

Mark

[tratclif]

Originally Posted by ronom

Supergamera is onto something, Centran might need the flexible thinking that Homeliner's possess to "think outside the box" and save them!

Remember that Centrum is a culture of rational materialists...

... living in a world designed by Ken Hite.

[ronom]

To me this is helping a gamer and indulging in "what if" scenarioes. One could easily make this a running simulation by the Pile and the Pentagon and acually have two campaigns! This would even keep things "canon" within the IW setting.

[IrishRover]

I was looking through Infinite Worlds and saw one thing that could make Centrum look for help at almost any price:
An active God that wasn't confined to its own little plane of existance. Infinity and the Cabal have dealt with them, but Centrum likely has not.

[Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2]

The original topic - peace between Centrum and Homeline ... forget it.

Centrum does not want peace - it want to be right! Centrum society is built around the concept of the One True Way. You're either in perfect agreement or you are in ERROR (a phrase they used in the Centrum vignette in IW). Centrum was doing the infiltrate-and-subvert game before they met Homeline. Homeline may be a bunch of money-grubbing industrialists who will blow up your home town just to make a background effect for a Homeline movie company (at a hefty profit) but they at least acknowledge that other civilizations have a right to exist.

As for the divergent topic - a superior crosstime civilization - there is an easy way to handle using Traveller (or Prime Directive) as source material.

Simply change all reference from outer space to extradimensional space. Starships become dimensional conveyors that 'orbit' in nth-dimensional space around a world and 'fly' between realities. Homeline and Centrum have conveyors, but they don't have interdimensional superscience warships!

Planets become parallel worlds (easy in some cases, since many SF 'alien planets' are based on Earthly societies). Aliens either become the product of their particular parallel (like the dinosaur-guys in the USL) or are changed to a new-but-weird human civilization.

To make an interesting twist (and preserve Homeline and Centrum and the rest), have this extradimensional super-power able to operate in only one quantum. This allows the existing crosstime powers to exist and feud while at the same time try to swipe the ultra-tech. Potential abounds.

And even one small ship escaping it's quantum to plague the quantum bands ... fun fun fun!

[CraigR]

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

As for the divergent topic - a superior crosstime civilization - there is an easy way to handle using Traveller (or Prime Directive) as source material.

Simply change all reference from outer space to extradimensional space. Starships become dimensional conveyors that 'orbit' in nth-dimensional space around a world and 'fly' between realities. Homeline and Centrum have conveyors, but they don't have interdimensional superscience warships!

Planets become parallel worlds (easy in some cases, since many SF 'alien planets' are based on Earthly societies). Aliens either become the product of their particular parallel (like the dinosaur-guys in the USL) or are changed to a new-but-weird human civilization.

Funny thing, I have been working on a Pyramid article detailing just such a campaign. I wasn't going to limit the ships to one quantum, however, just the opposite: Users of the interdimensional space technology were unaffected by quantum limitations and the civilization that used it considered the Infinity-Centrum war a "local" conflict.

[SuperGamera]

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

The original topic - peace between Centrum and Homeline ... forget it.

Centrum does not want peace - it want to be right! Centrum society is built around the concept of the One True Way. You're either in perfect agreement or you are in ERROR (a phrase they used in the Centrum vignette in IW). Centrum was doing the infiltrate-and-subvert game before they met Homeline. Homeline may be a bunch of money-grubbing industrialists who will blow up your home town just to make a background effect for a Homeline movie company (at a hefty profit) but they at least acknowledge that other civilizations have a right to exist.

Centrum would tone down its efforts towards Homeline and associated echoes if it was in their best interest. If they discovered that their manipulations threatened to shift Centrum into a higher band, towards a dangerous high-band civilization, their tactics could shift. Instead of pushing towards manipulating whole histories, they could instead focus on simple exploitation, with Homeline as a rival more than a threat.

It would be interesting to see Centrum encounter parallels of their own history, and realize that their path is not as inviolate as they may think. Imagine a "Twelve Monkeys" version of Centrum, with their own world still in shambles (and with an oppresive "permenant emergency") but experimenting with parachronic travel. Or a version where social and cultural diversity did not produce global destruction in the 20th century, but instead created a more advanced, transhuman society.

[Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2]

Originally Posted by SuperGamera

It would be interesting to see Centrum encounter parallels of their own history, and realize that their path is not as inviolate as they may think. Imagine a "Twelve Monkeys" version of Centrum, with their own world still in shambles (and with an oppresive "permenant emergency") but experimenting with parachronic travel. Or a version where social and cultural diversity did not produce global destruction in the 20th century, but instead created a more advanced, transhuman society.

I had designed a Centrum echo (never got it played, though :( ) with a PoD of the discovery of parachronics. Without parachronics, the echo eventually collapsed into civil war over interpretation of ideology. The echo was in a higher quantum and the very existence of this echo is forbidden to everyone below Grade 7 (the top of the Centrum hierarchy). After all, Centrum believes that it's ideology and united culture prevent war - proof of the opposite (that a firm social ideology actually makes a breeding ground for fanatics who will trigger wars over minor interpretations of ideology) cannot be allowed to be public knowledge. (But see refernces "Protestant Reformation" and "Soviet-Chinese Relations 1950-1990")

[Greystar]

Originally Posted by Mysterious Dark Lord v3.2

I had designed a Centrum echo (never got it played, though :( ) with a PoD of the discovery of parachronics. Without parachronics, the echo eventually collapsed into civil war over interpretation of ideology. The echo was in a higher quantum and the very existence of this echo is forbidden to everyone below Grade 7 (the top of the Centrum hierarchy). After all, Centrum believes that it's ideology and united culture prevent war - proof of the opposite (that a firm social ideology actually makes a breeding ground for fanatics who will trigger wars over minor interpretations of ideology) cannot be allowed to be public knowledge. (But see refernces "Protestant Reformation" and "Soviet-Chinese Relations 1950-1990")

My current game Ideas involves a never before explored Quantum where there are Super Heroes, Psionics, Aliens, Extra-Dimensional/Planar creatures. I call it Quantum 13. It's a crossroads quantum and from certain points on "Earth" you can "step over" into Quantum 7 or Quantum 10 as well as Jumpers who can travel to others. The UN knows of ISwat and Centrum and if any agents are discovered of either side they are rounded up de-debriefed and sent home. Agents of Cabal are imprisoned for crimes against humanity in this timeline. There has been a UN treaty that keeps this out of public knowledge. Having Aliens and Supers is enough for the general populous to deal with. Also having to have special agencies to deal with "Time Fluxes" and Quantum spies to throw into the mix to help keep things quiet.

So essentially I'm playing in another Quantum and the players may accidentally run into someone from a parallel or what have you.

Agents who have been sent back (or managed to flee with inside help) have reported back and to Infinity and Centrum this is a Red Zone. Currently there is no known way to get to Quantum 13 from Centrum or Homeline except by accident or a psychic jump gone way wrong. Getting back is much easier.

That's just how I'm doing thing. I also agree that I really don't think it's possible for Centrum and Homeline to ever end the war, maybe brief peace if there is a greater threat, but that's all.